Are needle bearing needles hardened?

Martin P · Mar 2, 2018

I need oversize needle bearing needles and cannot find any.
So I thought I buy the next size up and grind them down in an OD grinder. Since I need to grab them in a collet I also have to buy them longer.
So to make 2.55 mm diameter needles I need to buy a 3 mm or even 4 mm diameter needles.
The main thing I worry about is that the needles may be hardened and that I will grind the hardened layer away.
From 3 down to 2.55 may not be a problem, but from 4 mm down to 2.55?

Any input appreciated.

Martin

PS I guess the information will be buried in the infinite information of ********* catalog or the likes. But I could not find it .....I never can.....

andrewmawson · Mar 2, 2018

Unquestionably they will be hardened. But your question should be are they case hardened (i.e. The surface layer only) or through hardened.

adama · Mar 2, 2018

Buy one stick in vice, hit with hammer, results should be self explanatory, i would expect it to vary from supplier to supplier.

Milland · Mar 2, 2018

Are you sure grinding the needles is the best choice? I would look at grinding one of the races to use a standard needle, if that's possible.

MattiJ · Mar 2, 2018

AFAIK custom sized "needles" from SKF were quite reasonably priced.

And SKF uses trough hardened 52100 for most of the parts, including needles.
Surface hardened bearing parts or races are more of a Timken thing.

Milland · Mar 2, 2018

MattiJ said:
AFAIK custom sized "needles" from SKF were quite reasonably priced.

Some time ago I tried to find a vendor for needles and rollers, if you have a specific website for such it would be great to post the link.

MattiJ · Mar 2, 2018

Milland said:
Some time ago I tried to find a vendor for needles and rollers, if you have a specific website for such it would be great to post the link.

Sorry, can't remember details and it was in any case some local distributor that won't be much of help unless you can speak Finnish

Milland · Mar 2, 2018

MattiJ said:
Sorry, can't remember details and it was in any case some local distributor that won't be much of help unless you can speak Finnish

Ilmatyynyalukseni on täynnä ankeriaita.

Kenre · Mar 2, 2018

this place probably has your size in stock, M2 blanks, just cut them to length.

WILLIAM T. HUTCHINSON CO. HSSBLANKS UNION, New Jersey (N.J.)

adama · Mar 2, 2018

Not just that but if high speed or high stress they need better than ground finish and the corners need to be just right. FYI Most the big bearing suppliers have direct links to source this stuff you still wont yet find listed on the web, one of thoes few remaining distributor only things. Have never got custom needles, but have got custom rollers.

TNB · Mar 2, 2018

Martin P said:
I need oversize needle bearing needles and cannot find any.

For a Deckel spindle ?

Can't you ask Franz Singer where he buys the ones he uses ?

Plus I seem to recall I read somewhere that needles weren't ground perfectly cylindrical on their whole length to avoid stress on the ends.
Not sure though.

billmac · Mar 2, 2018

I would have thought that centreless grinding is the way to go for this type of work. Trying to hold them in a collet and grind on a conventional OD grinder seems a bit problematic. Once set up, a centreless grinder could do hundreds in the time it takes you to set one up in a cylindrical grinder.

adama · Mar 2, 2018

TNB said:
For a Deckel spindle ?
Can't you ask Franz Singer where he buys the one he uses ?

Plus I seem to recall I read somewhere that needles weren't ground perfectly cylindrical on their whole length to avoid ends stress.
Not sure though.

Yep, they can not be simply square ended, theres a lot going on if there too work well and even more if you want to run them even remotely fast and with needle rollers fast is slower than most realise!

JRIowa · Mar 2, 2018

When I was in automotive, our needles would come from SKF in about a 2 gallon container. IIRC, 70K in each. The needles are centerless ground and lapped. I'm thinking finish was 4 or better.
JR

dian · Mar 2, 2018

i keep hearing about oversized balls, but when i wanted to get some recently, my skf supplier didnt have any. there were balls in many sizes, but not oversized like + 0.01 mm.

wheels17 · Mar 2, 2018

I know nothing about the application, but a .1" needle is .00039 oversized. Do the rollers come in decimal inch sizes?

MattiJ · Mar 2, 2018

wheels17 said:
I know nothing about the application, but a .1" needle is .00039 oversized. Do the rollers come in decimal inch sizes?

Inch sizes are available but usually in 1/16” multiples, not 1/10”

JRIowa · Mar 2, 2018

MattiJ said:
Inch sizes are available but usually in 1/16” multiples, not 1/10”

It all depends on quantity. If you buy enough, you can get almost anything you want.
JR

HuFlungDung · Mar 2, 2018

dian said:
i keep hearing about oversized balls, but when i wanted to get some recently, my skf supplier didnt have any. there were balls in many sizes, but not oversized like + 0.01 mm.

Check precisionballs.com

L Vanice · Mar 2, 2018

Much depends upon the application, which was not stated in post #1.

I needed a 3/16" diameter x 3/16" hard roller for a B&S releasing tap holder last week. In my drawer of 3/16" steel dowels are some 3/16" bearing needles with a polished finish and rounded ends. I used one to make my roller. I put it in a 5C collet in a Hardinge lathe and squared one end with a carbide bit. Then I used a carbide P1 cutoff bit to cut off a little more than 3/16" and faced that end to the final length. The needle was hard all the way through, but carbide could cut it at high speed.

Many years ago, I wanted to try needle kingpin bearings in a 12,000 pound front axle for a heavy truck. That was what you might call a low RPM application. The stock bushings were 1/16" wall, the king pin was hardened steel with a centerless ground finish. The knuckle was forged steel with reamed kingpin holes, not very hard in that part of the knuckle. I bought a few dozen 1/16" drill blanks and they worked well enough to try out the idea.

HS drill and reamer blanks are available in many diameters, but they do not have polished surfaces and the diameter tolerances are probably more loose than bearing needles would have. Not important if you have to reduce the diameter, and the key thing is that you would not need to reduce it very much.

Larry

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