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  1. #21
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    I bought my S500X1s with tool and spindle probes (no bbt, no through coolant, 16k, sad little standard coolant tanks) for 61k each (a few years ago, but the yen was pretty close to what it is now) though in fairness to Yamazen I was buying four.

    Even with Haas's current 7.5% off, an equivalently optioned DM2 is $67k on their website. I don't know how much more Haas will come off if you put the screws to them, but point is they don't necessarily win dollar-for-dollar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjugo7 View Post
    Of those machines I would go for the Robodrill. I'm in Sweden and was close to buying a new machine in this class about a year ago.
    Disclaimer: I have a height limitation in an elevator which crossed some machines out early in the process.
    Also Fanuc Sweden have a few demo machines which is defiantly good bang for the buck when the sell them (got a good offer). Maybe also true for the other brands, but that I do not know.

    /Staffan
    Thank you, i also like the Robodrill. Where in Sweden are you located? Would be nice to see one live. Did you have any problems with it?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Don't just look at the rapids speed, look at the acceleration. It does no good to have a very high rapids speed if it takes "awhile" to get up to speed such that the machine rarely hits that top rapids speed -- Z-axis especially since that is a factor with very tool change.

    Multiple hours running ball endmill? You want way more than 10k RPM spindle IMO, and look closely at the machine's thermal comp capability.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Yes you池e right. But even if it does地t get up to maximum speed it痴 still quick. But if the machine is junk i need to look elswhere anyway. Yes some of the jobs would require a high rpm spindle, but the problem is when there is a heavier job that require some torque.

    Thanks

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Here we go again .

    [fair warning -- I own an S700X1]

    OK, unless you are severely space-restricted, or building out a set of machining cells, skip the S500 and go to the S700. It is only a little more $, but much more reasonable work envelope.

    DM2 -- I compared this machine with the S700X1 before I bought, and went with the Brother for some "soft" reasons like reliability, etc., but also some "hard" reasons like tool size restrictions -- DM2 max tool size is 2.5" OD x 7" length. WTF?!? My 3D taster is 7.6" gage length, and I often have reamers or XL drills that end up >7". Add the cost of the 15k RPM spindle and other things you need to get it to look like a Speedio S700 and a lot of the cost difference goes away. The DM2 is 40-taper, which is nice, but it is still an <6,000# machine so it's not like it's going to be as robust as a regular 10,000# 40-taper machine.

    Doosan -- very good machine, a nearby shop has one and I'm impressed. But, they do not (or didn't in 2016) offer a hyperspeed 30-taper like the DM2 or Speedio.

    Mazak -- no data, but when I looked at Mazak in 2016 the comparable compact 30-taper Mazak was right at 50% more than the Brother.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Great info. Here in Sweden the Mazak and Brother S500 is almost the same in price, i would guess the S700 is the same in price as the Primos machine from Mazak. I did get a price from Doosan today. Still very little info on the options it comes with but i should know more during the day, Its the T4000.

  5. #25
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    Consider support and speed of repair in your factoring. All machines will need maintenance and parts replacement, and the best machine does you little good if you're waiting for a repairman. Find out which brands are best supported in your area and make that an important part of your consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comatose View Post
    I bought my S500X1s with tool and spindle probes (no bbt, no through coolant, 16k, sad little standard coolant tanks) for 61k each (a few years ago, but the yen was pretty close to what it is now) though in fairness to Yamazen I was buying four.

    Even with Haas's current 7.5% off, an equivalently optioned DM2 is $67k on their website. I don't know how much more Haas will come off if you put the screws to them, but point is they don't necessarily win dollar-for-dollar.
    Thats a good price. Here i have to pay $80k for a 10k rpm S500 with not options added at all. With options i guess i値l be close to $100k. Thats crazy for a small machine.

    Regards

  8. #27
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    Yeah I agree they're not worth close to 100k. Frankly, if you're looking to spend that much, would it really be so expensive to raise the ceiling or dig out the floor and expand your options to full-sized machines?

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avikeneng View Post
    Thank you, i also like the Robodrill. Where in Sweden are you located? Would be nice to see one live. Did you have any problems with it?
    I was CLOSE to buying one, so I don not have one.

    Also consider service. Of the listed brands Haas is the only one I used and they are not so good.
    They are 300km away which means it is about $1200 minimum if they come. Some of them was not so good once they came, one even had to come back to fix his initial job...
    This summer when I tried to order grease for my machine they could not supply it and furthermore had no clue which grease I should buy.

    /Staffan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjugo7 View Post
    I was CLOSE to buying one, so I don not have one.

    Also consider service. Of the listed brands Haas is the only one I used and they are not so good.
    They are 300km away which means it is about $1200 minimum if they come. Some of them was not so good once they came, one even had to come back to fix his initial job...
    This summer when I tried to order grease for my machine they could not supply it and furthermore had no clue which grease I should buy.

    /Staffan
    Oh sorry i missed that you said close
    Ok does地t look good regarding the service fron Haas then, luckily i have been working with machine maintenance in 13 years so i was planning of doing the service and repairs myself to keep the cost down. But there must be good documentation in order to do that. What else can you say about the Haas? Is the machines alright besides the service/support issue?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    Take a look at the Doosan DNM series machines if you want the biggest bang for the buck.

    Paul
    Received the price on a T4000 with Cts option today. It was $98000

    Thought they where less expensive

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    I'm an unabashed Brother fanboy and Speedio owner, but the winner on this list is the Robodrill because of the $12k price difference. These are really competitive machines and the specific application can tilt some price difference one way or the other, but not general purpose work, and not that much of a delta.

    Here in the US, the available options between the two aren't 1:1, but they will be pretty damn close on price. Sounds like Brother needs to get their Swedish distributor in line.

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  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avikeneng View Post
    Oh sorry i missed that you said close
    Ok does地t look good regarding the service fron Haas then, luckily i have been working with machine maintenance in 13 years so i was planning of doing the service and repairs myself to keep the cost down. But there must be good documentation in order to do that. What else can you say about the Haas? Is the machines alright besides the service/support issue?

    Thanks
    Haas has a lot of service information online and I guess that my machine has been OK. Even so I would not by another Haas.
    I would say that the Robodrill and the Brother (don't know about the other) are in a different league when it comes to quality,the need for service and repair will be lower.

    /Staffan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    You get what you pay for. If you want a really good machine, don't buy garbage, and therefore remove Haas off of that list.
    Mtndew Have you ever owned a Haas? Why is it Garbage?

    Behind the Haas phenomenon - Tooling and Production Magazine for Large Plant Management and Metalworking

    An interesting read.With 200000 machines sold ,15000 estimated 2018 sold they must be doing something right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mc3608 View Post
    Mtndew Have you ever owned a Haas? Why is it Garbage?

    Behind the Haas phenomenon - Tooling and Production Magazine for Large Plant Management and Metalworking

    An interesting read.With 200000 machines sold ,15000 estimated 2018 sold they must be doing something right.
    Pretty sure almost everyone (in the US anyway) has lol. They are ok starter machines but compared to the other machines on the list they are a toy. When time is money they lose their value

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumpster View Post
    Pretty sure almost everyone (in the US anyway) has lol. They are ok starter machines but compared to the other machines on the list they are a toy. When time is money they lose their value
    It all depends what you are doing...we have Haas minimills at work that machine smaller inconel super alloy blades and shrouds and we have dmg Mori 4 and 5 axis machines that do larger castings. In the tool room we have a vm2 that we use for mold work. Last I checked running production super alloy parts wasn't done on a toy.

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  19. #36
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    I think there is a lot of nonsense about Haas around but I do think the "starter machine" notion comes from the fact a lot of people start with TMs and especially VF-2s. These arguably really are starter machines where the VF-2 for example is a bit smaller but half the weight of the VF-3. But I do not accept that the VF-3 and its variants and larger brethren are not serious machines for job shop and production work in a lot of industries that aren't oil and gas or watchmaking. And yes your specific service situation is key. Where we are located, the Haas distributor has the most well developed service operation of any of the vendors, particularly where some of the others would be servicing our region from the Toronto area 2500km away. That does make Haas an obvious choice here but the product is good. I can also personally attest to the fact that they hold their value in that when we just sold on our 2007 TM-2 with probe and 4th axis to get our current VM-3, we got excellent value out of it. Clearly there are more specialist machines for certain types of operations that are excellent, but as the article mc3608 linked to above clearly shows, Haas is aimed at general purpose work and flexibility and the machines are good at that.

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  21. #37
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    rcoope
    I have a vf4ss and a couple vf2ss mills and well the vf4ss is twice the weight of the smaller vf2ss mills they are "MORE" ridged. I run the same fixtures , programs and tooling on both size machines and can push the smaller vf2ss harder and get better tool life from them. The only upside to the vf4ss mill is the larger Z travel is nice for 4th axis work ,, the vf2ss mills throw chips up the tool hole ,, the brushes help but I still have to watch I don't get chips in the tool pockets..

    but I well say I run big fixtures on the 4th ( 10"+ ) and push the mills into the red all day long on alum parts.. most of the chips bounce off the sides or the ceiling before landing in the chip pan. A normal day is between 1 to 8 drums of chips per machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    rcoope
    I have a vf4ss and a couple vf2ss mills and well the vf4ss is twice the weight of the smaller vf2ss mills they are "MORE" ridged. I run the same fixtures , programs and tooling on both size machines and can push the smaller vf2ss harder and get better tool life from them. The only upside to the vf4ss mill is the larger Z travel is nice for 4th axis work ,, the vf2ss mills throw chips up the tool hole ,, the brushes help but I still have to watch I don't get chips in the tool pockets..

    but I well say I run big fixtures on the 4th ( 10"+ ) and push the mills into the red all day long on alum parts.. most of the chips bounce off the sides or the ceiling before landing in the chip pan. A normal day is between 1 to 8 drums of chips per machine.
    Sounds to me that the Haas machines are quite good after all.

    As it looks for the moment the Haas it on top of my list. Talked to a couple of companies here in Sweden that uses them and they where all happy. But i have地t gotten to the final price between all of them yet so things may change..

    Thanks for the reply

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    There's a lot of Haas haters on this site, whether it stems from a bad experience or just because they favor another brand I don't know. I do know I've operated a bunch of different machines and there's only one I could say was a hunk of shit...mighty viper with meldas magic controller. That machine caused most of the grey hairs I have and I'm only 37 lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    There's a lot of Haas haters on this site, whether it stems from a bad experience or just because they favor another brand I don't know. I do know I've operated a bunch of different machines and there's only one I could say was a hunk of shit...mighty viper with meldas magic controller. That machine caused most of the grey hairs I have and I'm only 37 lol
    Yes i have noticed that anyways i think whichever i choose will do just fine. LOL ok then i know what Not to buy

    Thanks


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