New to me Sheldon, question about HSS tools
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    Default New to me Sheldon, question about HSS tools

    Just picked up a 1974 Sheldon R15-6 with some trimmings. It came with a bunch of tooling, equal mix of inserts and ground. I know jack about lathes and even less about tooling, but I figure I'll start with the fundamentals by grinding my own.

    Seems if I'm going for precision angles with a grinder I could make use of my 4 axis cnc mill, but I haven't read anything about anyone doing that. Is it as easy as writing a program and popping in a blank when I need a fresh cutter?

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    Are you planning to use a grinding wheel or a carbide cutter to shape the HSS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer322 View Post
    Just picked up a 1974 Sheldon R15-6 with some trimmings. It came with a bunch of tooling, equal mix of inserts and ground. I know jack about lathes and even less about tooling, but I figure I'll start with the fundamentals by grinding my own.

    Seems if I'm going for precision angles
    Just MHO

    Unless they're screw cutting or form tools etc, lathe tool angles are not that critical …..a degree or 2 either way won't make that much difference, ………..as for accuracy a hand ground screwcutting held up to the light against a gauge is as close as you normally need to worry about.

    If you haven't already, get a copy of Southbend's ''How to Run A Lathe,'' ..which covers most of what you need to know about general lathe tool grinding

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    A good way to get a substantial grounding in CONCEPTS is to reach way back - like this 1927 effort

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/5795.pdf

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    I have a Sheldon R-15 with the long bed. Ray Behner has the 13" version. These are excellent medium duty machines, not up to the heavy cuts like some of the Monarchs, but plenty rigid enough for most work.

    One thing you must be careful about. The dovetail deck on the cross slide is useful. I made a second base for additional tooling or a toolpost grinder so I can set up cutters to turn and finish grind in one setup. The unfortunate side effect is that the deck is much wider than most and it is very easy to run it into the chuck. Remember to always check the clearance before starting a cut.

    If yours has the telescoping taper attachment with the end of the cross slide lead screw exposed, make a cover for it because chips get on the screw and jam and wear it.

    I have an original manual if you need a copy.

    Re toolbits, I have a lot of both HSS and carbide, use both as required. I have a CNC mill but have never ground a bit with it. I use a surface grinder with a vise I can set angles in for precision angles. I don't see any reason they couldn't be ground on a mill with a grinding wheel in the spindle. When grinding on a mill or lathe, be sure the slides are well covered.

    Bill

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    Good call on the SB manual, I've been looking at that.

    Agree it's not that critical, but if I have the capability it makes sense to use it. I do want to make thread cutting and forming tools too. I like the idea of having a library of ends I can chose from and just press a button for.

    I'd be using carbide cutters, unless there's a reason not to?

    I'm definitely not as smart as I think I am, so when I have an idea that seems obvious but I can't find any info on anyone doing it my first thought is that there must be a reason. Grinding is obviously the quickest and easiest, but it also looks like folks can get pretty intricate with their setups and designs, chip breakers and the like. Figure if I have it why not use it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I have a Sheldon R-15 with the long bed. Ray Behner has the 13" version. These are excellent medium duty machines, not up to the heavy cuts like some of the Monarchs, but plenty rigid enough for most work.

    One thing you must be careful about. The dovetail deck on the cross slide is useful. I made a second base for additional tooling or a toolpost grinder so I can set up cutters to turn and finish grind in one setup. The unfortunate side effect is that the deck is much wider than most and it is very easy to run it into the chuck. Remember to always check the clearance before starting a cut.

    If yours has the telescoping taper attachment with the end of the cross slide lead screw exposed, make a cover for it because chips get on the screw and jam and wear it.

    I have an original manual if you need a copy.

    Re toolbits, I have a lot of both HSS and carbide, use both as required. I have a CNC mill but have never ground a bit with it. I use a surface grinder with a vise I can set angles in for precision angles. I don't see any reason they couldn't be ground on a mill with a grinding wheel in the spindle. When grinding on a mill or lathe, be sure the slides are well covered.

    Bill
    Thanks for the info. Yeah the cross slide lead screw is exposed, but it's hard to tell, I think I do have the telescoping attachment but I'll have to see when I get back to the shop.

    Mine came with the instruction and parts manual, a couple drawings, and the original inspection sheet and registration memo.

    I joined the yahoo group but am waiting for approval.

    img_20191004_170029.jpg
    img_20191004_163302.jpg
    img_20191004_163251.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer322 View Post
    Good call on the SB manual, I've been looking at that.

    Agree it's not that critical, but if I have the capability it makes sense to use it. I do want to make thread cutting and forming tools too. I like the idea of having a library of ends I can chose from and just press a button for.

    I'd be using carbide cutters, unless there's a reason not to?

    I'm definitely not as smart as I think I am, so when I have an idea that seems obvious but I can't find any info on anyone doing it my first thought is that there must be a reason. Grinding is obviously the quickest and easiest, but it also looks like folks can get pretty intricate with their setups and designs, chip breakers and the like. Figure if I have it why not use it?
    Milling the tool out of the hard HSS is nasty business. Possible but you wear expensive endmills too fast to make any sense out of it. And you would still need to finish the cutting edges with grinding for best possible sharpness.

    Its feasible option when you need accurate form tool that would be difficult to grind hand-held or something like that.

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    I usually just grind freehand on a pedestal or bench grinder. If I want particular angles, I use one of those thin metal machinist protractors. Additionally, for threading tools, various fish tail (or center) gages are available. Just grind until the tool fits in the proper slots and add some clearance.

    Otherwise, the tool you want is a tool and cutter grinder of some sort with proper work heads.

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    Grinding a HSS tool blank into a useable lathe tool is pretty straightforward. It only takes three steps to do it,
    or two if you are making a brass tool:



    Omit the side rake for brass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer322 View Post
    Good call on the SB manual, I've been looking at that.

    Agree it's not that critical, but if I have the capability it makes sense to use it. I do want to make thread cutting and forming tools too. I like the idea of having a library of ends I can chose from and just press a button for.

    I'd be using carbide cutters, unless there's a reason not to?

    I'm definitely not as smart as I think I am, so when I have an idea that seems obvious but I can't find any info on anyone doing it my first thought is that there must be a reason. Grinding is obviously the quickest and easiest, but it also looks like folks can get pretty intricate with their setups and designs, chip breakers and the like. Figure if I have it why not use it?
    INITIAL "to shape" grinding of HSS is anything BUT "quick".

    It can stand up to a lot of heat in the cut, but wants to nano-crack its bleeding edge if one tries to grind it FAST. And one does NOT quench it in a water pot!.

    What works better is to gather several blanks at once, have "a plan" for each, grind 'til hot, lay that one aside on a CI or steel plate to slow-cool, and work on the next. Repeat by cycling through the collection 'til done.

    Fine touch up of any given shape thereafter is quicker.

    Carbides used to suck, fifty-odd years ago, as most were "negative rake" and basically bulldozed the waste off, wanting lots of power and stiffness.

    Time has passed. So have tens of thousands of insert type, shapes, and coatings (or NOT), and mega millions of actual inserts . Modern Carbides are stronger, enable some lovely-sharp positive rake and far better chip control is built-in. Improvements are still being made at a fast pace, so...

    A) They no longer "must have" gobs of power, uber-stiff machines, nor a narrow range of SFM / RPM.

    B) There is "more than one workable answer" for each alloy and heat, but specialized they can be, and very much so.

    Result? It is a major challenge for smallholders who don't do thousands at a go of the same part in the same alloy to pick good all-around inserts AND the best holders for them for whatever it is they actually "do, do".

    HSS, by contrast, I recommend a fair start is to pick up a "collection" or three of used ones that one or several prior Pilgrims had ground in a few dozen different ways.

    Figuring out the "why" of each, shape ground, as-had, helps educate a body without having to make ALL OF the same successes - or mistakes - all at once!

    Start there for HSS, HSS-Cobalt, Stellite, etc.

    A few "virgin" full-length blanks can come later when you know more about what works, your lathe, your alloy, your size & shape, etc.

    Selecting insert "systems" is more complex, 'coz one does NOT ordinarily grind them at all, and the tool holder is easily as important as the insert it holds.

    PM has several threads on what inserts are all-around good, and/or alloy-specific-good as to value-for-money choices.

    AVOID snapping-up boxes of inserts off eBay just because they are attractively priced.

    Lybarger's Corollary applies, so they be may not fit holders readily had, may be there because a MUCH better insert replaced them, may be common size and holder but shite quality, may be best at only a narrow speciality as to alloy & speeds, etc.

    Brazed Carbides on softer steel shanks? Yah.. everybody needs a few for odd stuff, 'co those one CAN grind.

    Otherwise, I think I'd rather have a bad rash than have to mess with those.

    2CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    .................................................. ..........

    AVOID snapping-up boxes of inserts off eBay jsut becasue htey are attractivly priced.

    ......................................
    What do you mean!!! Half of my inventory of inserts come from eBay! Of course, I choose carefully and make sure of the grade will work for my needs. I'm still working off of inserts from my dad's old shop from over twenty years ago, too.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4GSR View Post
    What do you mean!!! Half of my inventory of inserts come from eBay! Of course, I choose carefully and make sure of the grade will work for my needs. I'm still working off of inserts from my dad's old shop from over twenty years ago, too.

    Ken
    LOL!

    Well. you are using inserts that have "almost certainly" been improved / bypassed with newer Carbides and shapes, and by more than just a "little bit"...

    Mind.. I still have a few "HCS" here meself, drill-rod, "clock steel", even one that used to be a Nicholson black diamond FILE!

    They get certain jobs done as well as ever, and are much faster to grind than HSS-Cobalt or Stellite...

    Obsolete don't mean USELESS. Or so I hope to keep convincing my Wife.


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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    A good way to get a substantial grounding in CONCEPTS is to reach way back - like this 1927 effort

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/5795.pdf
    I have sent my 25 cents off to South Bend, Indiana, but have not yet received my operator booklet. Anyone know how long it will be in coming?

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchi7 View Post
    I have sent my 25 cents off to South Bend, Indiana, but have not yet received my operator booklet. Anyone know how long it will be in coming?
    Be patient with Royal Mail. It's probably a brexit thing.

    -Marty-

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchi7 View Post
    I have sent my 25 cents off to South Bend, Indiana, but have not yet received my operator booklet. Anyone know how long it will be in coming?
    Meahh.. "Period correct" coin of the realm? That revision having been published 1928, and Blighty not going off the gold standard until September of 1931?

    You may have simply made a significant contribution in rare coin to "Mayor Pete's" polbitchical run for Pretzeldunk of the Yew Ass, Ehh? Ask his co-husband how long he takes to ... n'er mind..

    Just click on the link, wilyah? THAT bit still does what is expected of it, anyway.

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    [QUOTE=Archer322;3424733]Just picked up a 1974 Sheldon R15-6 with some trimmings. It came with a bunch of tooling, equal mix of inserts and ground. I know jack about lathes and even less about tooling

    I too was new to all of this several years ago and have a ton of books; but only one will fit your needs. Machine Shop Practices, by KH Moltrecht, will cover everything you need to know about everything. Have fun!

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    Default Toolbits

    [QUOTE=Ejz SB9A;3425940]
    Quote Originally Posted by Archer322 View Post
    Just picked up a 1974 Sheldon R15-6 with some trimmings. It came with a bunch of tooling, equal mix of inserts and ground. I know jack about lathes and even less about tooling

    I too was new to all of this several years ago and have a ton of books; but only one will fit your needs. Machine Shop Practices, by KH Moltrecht, will cover everything you need to know about everything. Have fun!
    I have been grinding H.S.S. tool bits on a bench grinder for the last 69 years. It's a matter developing skills. If a special shape is required that cannot be fashioned on the bench grinder; use the surface grinder. It's a bad idea to grind on a CNC mill. The spindle speed is not sufficient for the grinding wheels and the grinding grit and dust would enter the bearing surfaces. Your getting good and bad advice! Cutting high speed tool bits with carbide tools is poor advice. High Speed Steel hardness can exceed 65Rc. depending on the alloys in the steel. Grinding is the correct method by far.

    Roger

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    Very often you swing your tool holder and sight to a protractor if a certain angle is called.
    for one ups and the like HSS is good/OK. Inserts may be OK to good if having a long run and want to just flip the insert.
    A decent bench grinder is essential for grinding HSS bits..Threading inserts are easy to master grinding on a bench grinder. Threading inserts are fine/Ok but you may still have to use a fish gauge to square the tool bit to the part.
    The mill is not for sharpening any inserts or tool bits.. to sharpen brazed tool bits you need a wet diamond wheel and a bench grinder to clear the steel and braze as it does not grind well with a diamond wheel..
    Carbide runs harder parts but likes higher spindle speed.. looks like your lathe runs 950 and 1250 so that is not as fast as best, but is OK..., yes you can run mild parts with carbide.

    i like to advise to buy a hand full of HSS bits off ebay so you can feel them to your bench grinder wheel to get a feel for sharpening...and see what some old timer used.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 10-12-2019 at 07:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer322 View Post
    Thanks for the info. Yeah the cross slide lead screw is exposed, but it's hard to tell, I think I do have the telescoping attachment but I'll have to see when I get back to the shop.

    Mine came with the instruction and parts manual, a couple drawings, and the original inspection sheet and registration memo.

    I joined the yahoo group but am waiting for approval.

    img_20191004_170029.jpg
    img_20191004_163302.jpg
    img_20191004_163251.jpg
    The pictures definitely show a taper attachment ... and though I can't be sure from these pictures, I don't see any obvious means for disconnecting the cross-feed screw, so I'm guessing it is a telescoping type.

    But it also looks like there may be a cover extending over the cross feed screw already - again, hard to tell from these pictures.


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