New Pratt Burnerd Quality?

I've been looking through the site reading chuck reviews. Reading about companies moving off-shore and quality going downhill.
So has anyone bought a Pratt Burnerd chuck in recent times? Are they still a quality product?

We're looking for a couple of 6" chucks (3-jaw scroll and 4-jaw independent) and I think its going to come down to PBA or Kitagawa. Prices are close, except PBA has adapter plates to our dumb A2-4 spindle.

Thanks.

I bought a new PBA 6 inch six jaw set-tru chuck about 10 yrs ago.

Quality is at least as good as my 1964 vintage Pratt Burnerd chucks if not better.

Bison chucks are good also. I just bought a 12 inch Bison 4 jaw and it’s beautiful.

I got the 10” bison 4 jaw with D1-6 as all one piece. I really like it.

URGuys said:

I've been looking through the site reading chuck reviews. Reading about companies moving off-shore and quality going downhill.
So has anyone bought a Pratt Burnerd chuck in recent times? Are they still a quality product?

We're looking for a couple of 6" chucks (3-jaw scroll and 4-jaw independent) and I think its going to come down to PBA or Kitagawa. Prices are close, except PBA has adapter plates to our dumb A2-4 spindle.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Adaptor plates don't have to come from the same source as the chuck, and an A2-4 is not really "rare".

I don't run 3-Jaw scroll-operated chucks, but "if I did", MY research rates the Czech ToS Svitavy as rather good value-for-money, and "in the present day".

Bison, for example, has had some ups and downs over the past ten or so years.

"Many" small manual chucks have seen outsourcing/house branding even by makers that still produce their own larger chucks and power-operated chucks. There just isn't all that much repeat-business market for them in the CNC-dominated era.

2CW

thermite said:

Adaptor plates don't have to come from the same source as the chuck, and an A2-4 is not really "rare"....2CW

Click to expand...

Adapter plates for the PBA Setrite chucks are the same as for the old Buck Ajust-Tru and the Chinese BTC copies of the Buck. They all need a big boss on the front for the four centering screws to push against and six 1/4-20 (for the 6" chucks) tapped holes to attach the chuck.. A normal adapter plate is too thin to work with those chucks unless you attach a separate boss. The diameter of the chuck and the size of the spindle may not leave enough room for the screws that fasten the separate boss. An adapter from other than PBA may not work for a PBA chuck. Some adapters have chuck mounting holes already drilled and tapped and/or counterbored, and those only fit certain chucks.

I have for sale a nice near new Pratt Burnerd 160 mm Setrite 3-jaw, the one that fits 6" adapters from PBA or Buck. I also have a nice new, but lightly rusted TOS Svitavy adjustable 160 mm 3-jaw. Both have two-piece jaws. The TOS does look very well made, but it uses three 3/8" or M10 screws from the front and will not fit a 6" PBA or Buck adapter because of the bolt circle being different. The TOS boss bore is about 3.125", same as PBA, BTC and Buck.

In case you are curious, the Buck Ajust-Tru chucks are 6.0" diameter and the PBA Setrite chucks are the larger 160 mm diameter, but PBA made their chuck fit the Buck 6" adapters. And, of course the Buck and BTC chucks fit PBA adapters. Note that I am only describing adjustable chucks, not the 3-jaw chucks without the adjustable feature.

Bison and the Chinese copies of Bison take a whole different sort of adapter for their adjustable chucks.

Am I correct that A spindles require that the chuck adapter is first fastened to the spindle with screws and then the chuck is fastened to the adapter with more screws? If so, then maybe a 6"/160 mm flat back chuck that has only tapped holes on the back will not allow those chuck mounting screws to enter the holes in the adapter.

Larry

iirc they've done something where they got a lot cost offshore then their original high quality. if you look up PBA on say mcmaster carr and kbc canada, the 6" in Canada says PBA Atlas 450 $CDN and the mcmaster PBA is $1200 US. About the dumbest marketing move you can make imo, but it looks stay away from the PBA Atlas....if you just looked at kbc's site you think PBA was the lowest end chuck there was as ad copy is just branded "PBA" (but if you look you can see it says atlas on the chuck)

L Vanice said:

Am I correct that A spindles require that the chuck adapter is first fastened to the spindle with screws and then the chuck is fastened to the adapter with more screws?

Click to expand...

"It depends". A 4-J may often have enough space it can be front-bolted, even if "two stage".

While a scroll-plate is usually far larger at the ID than the bore of any given chuck, in smaller sizes of chuck it may still NOT have enough clear space to allow drilling for front-bolts where they need to be.

The "right" adapter - be it store-bought or shop-fabbed - then has to also be large enough at the OD to allow mounting holes pretty far out on any of the smaller chuck's body diameters, else one cannot even get the fasteners into place, once bolted to the A style nose, let alone get a wrench, TorX, or Allen-key onto them.

I'd like to be able to say I'd refuse to OWN a lathe with an "A" tribe spindle nose. Give me L series for QC speed, D1-X or Hardinge taper as good compromises, or even threaded as preference over "A" series, and I've few worries as to fastening.

But then.. my Cazeneuve HBX is only slightly better, and "better" comes as a huge premium in cost for backplates one dasn't really WANT to try to shop-fab accurately (the blanks are huge, for starters), so...

"TANSTAAFL"

Mcgyver said:

iirc they've done something where they got a lot cost offshore then their original high quality. if you look up PBA on say mcmaster carr and kbc canada, the 6" in Canada says PBA Atlas 450 $CDN and the mcmaster PBA is $1200 US. About the dumbest marketing move you can make imo, but it looks stay away from the PBA Atlas....if you just looked at kbc's site you think PBA was the lowest end chuck there was as ad copy is just branded "PBA" (but if you look you can see it says atlas on the chuck)

Click to expand...

Pratt Burnerd has always been "offshore," in England. Can't say if the chucks are still made in England, but I am sure they are still offshore.

The 600 Group owns the Clausing and Atlas brand names, along with Pratt Burnerd, Colchester and many others. Some years ago, I noticed on the PBA (Pratt Burnerd America) web catalog that they are selling PBI (Pratt Burnerd International) and Atlas Workholding brand chucks. The Atlas brand is cheaper, of course.

PBA is headquartered in Kalamazoo, MI, the original home of Atlas Press/Clausing Corp. I looked at their addresses and buildings with Google maps and street view. The original brick N. Pitcher St. Atlas plant has Atlas Workholding, PBA and 600 Group signs on the front. A newer building next door to the south has Clausing Industrial and 600 Group signs, but also has a For Lease sign. Another old brick building next door to the north is abandoned and has no signs, but may have been part of Atlas before they shrank.

If anyone cares, you can call PBA and ask questions. They are helpful and friendly. I know they do offer chuck repair and re-grinding jaws, for instance.

Larry

My company bought a brand new PBA 10” six-jaw set-rite chuck for our manual lathe. Finish was exceptional but the runout was very disappointing. Chuck up a 1” shaft and dial it in, and then chuck up a 3” bar. The 3” piece of stock will run out .010” or more.

I had the same experience with my 8” Kalamazoo 6jaw chuck. Those are the only two chicks I’ve used with such dramatic variation in runout across diameters.

The PBA website vaguely states that the Atlas chucks are sourced globally, including but not limited to USA.
I assume the ones labeled Pratt Burnerd are still made in England??

L Vanice said:

Pratt Burnerd has always been "offshore," in England. Can't say if the chucks are still made in England, but I am sure they are still offshore.

The 600 Group owns the Clausing and Atlas brand names, along with Pratt Burnerd, Colchester and many others. Some years ago, I noticed on the PBA (Pratt Burnerd America) web catalog that they are selling PBI (Pratt Burnerd International) and Atlas Workholding brand chucks. The Atlas brand is cheaper, of course.

PBA is headquartered in Kalamazoo, MI, the original home of Atlas Press/Clausing Corp. I looked at their addresses and buildings with Google maps and street view. The original brick N. Pitcher St. Atlas plant has Atlas Workholding, PBA and 600 Group signs on the front. A newer building next door to the south has Clausing Industrial and 600 Group signs, but also has a For Lease sign. Another old brick building next door to the north is abandoned and has no signs, but may have been part of Atlas before they shrank.

If anyone cares, you can call PBA and ask questions. They are helpful and friendly. I know they do offer chuck repair and re-grinding jaws, for instance.

Larry

Click to expand...

Yup, it is why when you bought, not sure now, a new colchester you got it with a nice "600 Group" sticker on it and a Pratt Burnerd chuck that was re-branded to colchester.

The 600 group had a massive part of the machine tool market over here. Their main agents have recently changed, I think about 3 years ago, but I dealt with the older agents a few times. When I was in the market for a new VMC they tried to sell me a bridgeport, which they also had an agency for. You can easily get spares from them for machines that are pretty old, the only problem is that it is not a cheap exercise.

The last newish Pratt Burnerd chuck I used was about 2 years ago and it's quality was just as good if not better than the stacks of older one's I have used. I have actually wondered if anyone has any experience with their power chucks. I am dreading the day when my Kitagawa's needs replacing

Pratt Burnerd, I think, are not made in the UK anymore. I can't recall how I came to this conclusion and I may be wrong. I want to say they are made in Poland or perhaps the Czech Republic, but I can offer no evidence in either case!

That said, the quality is good. I have bought several new Pratt Burnerd standard precision scroll chucks for fitting to 4th axis' in the last half a dozen years or so, and have been happy with them. These have all been the ductile iron body with hardened jaw guide inserts. Finish is nice and accuracy is good.

I bought a new 250mm Bison 3544 steel body 3 jaw last year for a little teach lathe we bought and it also is pretty nice. Better finished than older Bisons that I've bought in the past.

I have a Kitigawa JN12 that came with a new 4th axis about 8 years ago. It is probably the nicest of the bunch overall, but it's a small margin.

The Kit and the Bison steel body chucks both have clear evidence of induction hardening in the jaw guides, and are nicely ground.

NAST555 said:

Yup, it is why when you bought, not sure now, a new colchester you got it with a nice "600 Group" sticker on it and a Pratt Burnerd chuck that was re-branded to colchester.

The 600 group had a massive part of the machine tool market over here. Their main agents have recently changed, I think about 3 years ago, but I dealt with the older agents a few times. When I was in the market for a new VMC they tried to sell me a bridgeport, which they also had an agency for. You can easily get spares from them for machines that are pretty old, the only problem is that it is not a cheap exercise.

The last newish Pratt Burnerd chuck I used was about 2 years ago and it's quality was just as good if not better than the stacks of older one's I have used. I have actually wondered if anyone has any experience with their power chucks. I am dreading the day when my Kitagawa's needs replacing

Click to expand...

PB power chucks seem to be pretty uncommon on commodity size lathes. They're a bit more prolific in the big bore market. As such my only experience with them is some of the self contained air chucks that I have mounted in fixtures that I use in the machining centres. They seem well made, and never give any hassle, so I have no complaints about them.

If you do need to replace your Kits in the future and just want something "as good", I'd probably go with Samschully. IME they are easily equal to Kit, and presumably a bit cheaper.

Thanks for the responses guys.

J-Head said:

Bison chucks are good also. I just bought a 12 inch Bison 4 jaw and it’s beautiful.

Click to expand...

TheOldCar said:

I got the 10” bison 4 jaw with D1-6 as all one piece. I really like it.

Click to expand...

We actually just bought a Bison for a manual lathe. I don't run the machine but I'm the one that ordered the chuck and unpackaged it. And yes it does seem like a nice chuck... fit and finish is good, no sharp edges. Haven't tested run out.

thermite said:

and an A2-4 is not really "rare"

Click to expand...

Maybe not one in a million, but there are a whole lot more options for other spindle styles. Hell, even a A-5 opens up a lot more possibilities.
A sister machine shop has the same machine with a camlock spindle. Way more options than us.

gregormarwick said:

If you do need to replace your Kits in the future and just want something "as good", I'd probably go with Samschully. IME they are easily equal to Kit, and presumably a bit cheaper.

Click to expand...

I tried to get a Samchully quote. The vendor only responded with a PBA quote even though their website lists Samchully has a supplier. This has actually been a battle with most of my vendors. Only quoting some of their choices, only listing item numbers and not telling me what products they are quoting. Its been an infuriating search.

UPDATE FEBUARY 2019

Decided to go with Pratt Burnerd because they offered both the 3-jaw and 4-jaw in the sizes we wanted and offered the proper adapter-plates. Us or the supplier wouldn’t be sourcing from multiple vendors on products that may have to be modified to fit together (we’re already months behind on work and I just want something I can use when it arrives). Plus we have some old Pratt Burnerd chucks around the shop and they are fine.
I originally wanted the 333-series 3-jaw from Pratt Burnerd because it was a basic chuck that handled 4500RPM. But it’s a special order with a 12-14 week wait. So I was talked into their Setrite chuck.

August 2018:
3-jaw chuck + adapter plate arrive. The chuck is fine, the quality not spectacular. But the adapter plate is disaster. Pratt Burnerd modified an existing camlock adapter-plate by drilling/counterboring some holes in it so it could mount to our A2-4 spindle. The adapter plate sticks further out than it needs (but we can live with that), they didn’t deburr the part so it has edges ragged enough to cut skin, and it was obviously dropped. But the biggest issue was that the screws to dial-in the Setrite chuck aligned on the holes they created to mount to our spindle. No matter how we orientated the chuck, one of the dial-in screws would be on the hole/counterbore and just spin in void. So send it back with an email asking the next adapter-plate spigot to be sized tightly to the chuck so we wouldn’t have to constantly dial the chuck in every time it was mounted because we can change chucks three times a day here.
4-jaw chuck + adapter plate arrives as well. The chuck is fine, quality not spectacular. But the adapter plate cannot be loaded onto the machine spindle… the pocket for the spindle drive lug is in the wrong spot. So send it back.
Both chucks and adapters are overall lacking in quality as shown in the pics below: there are dings along the outside of the chucks, there are scratch marks on the faces of the products, and there are sharp edges where they didn’t deburr the parts. I would expect this from cheap products but we paid the same as we would for Bison or equivalent. So we are unimpressed.







November 2018:
We received new adapter plates for both 3-jaw and 4-jaw chucks. The 4-jaw works as it should.
The 3-jaw adapter-plate still has loads of clearance so you would have to dial-in the Setrite chuck every time it is mounted. After we email them again, reminding them of our conversation in August they inform us this option is not possible on Setrite chucks. As stated by Pratt Burnerd themselves “the back body of the Setrite is not held to a tight tolerance”, so even if we make an adapter-plate ourselves the chuck will have significant runout. It would have been nice to have this information months ago.
My supplier sends back the Setrite chuck and adapter-plate after we decide on a different chuck to order.

December 2018:
Received the new 3-jaw chuck and adapter-plate. Chuck is typical Pratt Burnerd lackluster quality. The adapter-plate is damaged. I have no idea if it was damaged in machining or they dropped it or what. But there is a noticeable ding that protrudes into the taper. I call my salesman and tell him I’m not mounting this adapter-plate on my machine. He comes and picks it up to send back to Pratt Burnerd.



January 2019:
The 3-jaw adapter-plate arrives again. They didn’t send us a new one, they apparently fixed the old one. Our supplier mentioned that the adapter plate was burnished, so maybe Pratt Burnerd mentioned that to them? Anyway, I laid the adapter plate on the spindle taper and I was able to rock it back on a high point so obviously they didn’t fix the protrusion. So I mount the adapter plate in a mill, dialed the bore to zero with a finger-dial, and swung the dial over the ding. It had a 0.002” raise, which is pretty noticeable if Pratt Burnerd would have taken the time to check their “fixed” product. My supplier came and took the 3-jaw chuck and adapter plate away in the afternoon, saying they’ve had enough of this crap.

So I’m sitting here typing this out as a warning for anybody who is searching for a new chuck.
I’m not going to tell you what to do… but hopefully this serves a warning about Pratt Burnerd.
I know I’ll probably catch some flak from some members for this whole expedition, but whatever.
And I still do not have a 3-jaw chuck. Sigh.

You have much more patience than I do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well I bought both 5" and 6" three jaw SETRITE chucks direct from PB last year. I had to return the 5" as the number 2 jaw jammed fairly regularly. The UK sales manager stated losts of parts were now made in the Far East.

PB are not the company they were!

HTH

John