Cuchullain
Aluminum
- Joined
- May 17, 2007
- Location
- Rhode Island
As far as I can tell the only current source for new shapers is India. Has anyone had any experience with Manek Machine Tools of Mumbai or Indian tools generally?
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New Shaper
- Thread starter Cuchullain
- Start date
- Replies 27
- Views 6,132
Mickey_D
Stainless
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Location
- Austin, TX
Why would anyone in their right mind want a machine tool from the only country that makes you wish that it came from China so that the quality would be better? Good condition used shapers from quality American companies are still very reasonable ($300 to $1200 can get you a very nice shaper) and nice "real" shapers often go for less than scrap weight price. Post in the machinery wanted or for sale section and I am sure that you will find something.
Forrest Addy
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2000
- Location
- Bremerton WA USA
Sorry Mickey but you make no sense. Your post is pure conjecture based on industrial Jingoism. I agree that a machine tool made in India might have quality problems but their design is likely to be first rate being based (often copied) in part from old technology of Europe and elsewhere. That said, without objective first hand examination and operation one cannot honestly condemn India manufactured machine tools and goods as substandard, junk, or any other descriptor alluding good, bad, or indifferent.
India has a nuclear program, a space program and it has thriving pharmaceutcal, chemical, medical care, metals, electronics and textile industries. They're making up lost opportunity as fast as their economy and labor pool permits. They send their young people all over the world to be educated. No nation takes on these activities with less than a well developed technology base including machine tool manufacture.
The most dangerous attitude for anyone to maintain is complacency in initial acheivement and conrempt for lesser but still striving competitors. Remember the laughter about the Volksvagen in the mid 50's, Honda's first car in the late '60's, and the US auto industiry's seemingly permanant domination of the world auto market until 1980? Times change and if you stay locked in place the rest of the world will run rght over you.
The Tortise and the Hare is not just a kid story, it's an allegory of life.
So, Mikey and other Defenders of Old American Iron (iron that's no longer made and mostly worn out by now) sneer at India and other third world machine tools if you want. You may be sneering out of the other side of your face sooner than you realize. It's probably safer to adopt a "show me" attitude. It's healthier and more objective than instant knee jerk contempt and denial.
India has a nuclear program, a space program and it has thriving pharmaceutcal, chemical, medical care, metals, electronics and textile industries. They're making up lost opportunity as fast as their economy and labor pool permits. They send their young people all over the world to be educated. No nation takes on these activities with less than a well developed technology base including machine tool manufacture.
The most dangerous attitude for anyone to maintain is complacency in initial acheivement and conrempt for lesser but still striving competitors. Remember the laughter about the Volksvagen in the mid 50's, Honda's first car in the late '60's, and the US auto industiry's seemingly permanant domination of the world auto market until 1980? Times change and if you stay locked in place the rest of the world will run rght over you.
The Tortise and the Hare is not just a kid story, it's an allegory of life.
So, Mikey and other Defenders of Old American Iron (iron that's no longer made and mostly worn out by now) sneer at India and other third world machine tools if you want. You may be sneering out of the other side of your face sooner than you realize. It's probably safer to adopt a "show me" attitude. It's healthier and more objective than instant knee jerk contempt and denial.
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dazz
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
- Location
- New Zealand
Saying all Indian machinery is poor quality is like saying all Americans are obese and like guns.
The best milling machine (the shaper was Spanish made) in the workshop at my company is Indian made. I have met some very very smart Indians.
The best milling machine (the shaper was Spanish made) in the workshop at my company is Indian made. I have met some very very smart Indians.
RC99
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2005
You can be an American if you don't like guns - just not a very good one!
The better argument is simply a financial one - why buy a new shaper, from a foreign country to boot, when you can buy an excellent used shaper for far less? I don't believe for a minute most shapers are worn out. I also suspect that while India can produce good products the shaper is not one for which they have poured their efforts into the perfection of quality.
The better argument is simply a financial one - why buy a new shaper, from a foreign country to boot, when you can buy an excellent used shaper for far less? I don't believe for a minute most shapers are worn out. I also suspect that while India can produce good products the shaper is not one for which they have poured their efforts into the perfection of quality.
Robert Campbell Jr.
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
- Location
- Hesperia, SoCal
Jingoism aside.....
Forrest hit ...well...a... nail square on the head.
Against daunting odds, India is emerging as the shining example of pulling yourself up by your boot straps, displaying great intelligence and dedication while presenting a friendly face to the world, (no, I didn't poll any of the 'stan's) however Forrest, I've a quibble with your opening volley to Mickey to wit: "you make no sense."
Mickey made perfect sense with: "Good condition used shapers from quality American companies are still very reasonable ($300 to $1200 can get you a very nice shaper) and nice "real" shapers often go for less than scrap weight price" and that comprises over half of his post.
There is no reason to believe that ever again, shapers will be built by anyone, to the rock solid specs of those that go begging for an appropriate price today, though to me, the supply seems to be getting thinner of late......
My crystal ball sez they fall to far too the rear technologically, and that the mindset that demanded unbreakable, rock-crusher performance from machine tools will never be seen again, anywhere on earth.
Were the old guys right? Well, for me, I'm thrilled to find a neglected, over-built monument to the mechanical perfection of yesteryear, for a pittance but in reality, what percentage of the life of the super machines was utilized, half? Could that be justified now, or ever again?
Cuchullain, my choice would be, hold out for the never-to-again-be-duplicated best, some are still around and crying to be put back to tireless work, rather than soulessly scrapped, please..... it will work very hard for you and make you proud every time you step into the shop....
Bob
No vise for either but contrary to some, that can be well remedied, both do have the out-board table support.
Invicta 6MR metal shaper 24" stroke - eBay (item 250629869497 end time May-19-10 12:30:39 PDT) Currently @ $200
24 IN G & E SHAPER KEY SEATER - eBay (item 290435100721 end time May-23-10 10:11:50 PDT) Currently @ $150
Just how inexpensive are the Indian 24's? Or any other size.
Forrest hit ...well...a... nail square on the head.
Against daunting odds, India is emerging as the shining example of pulling yourself up by your boot straps, displaying great intelligence and dedication while presenting a friendly face to the world, (no, I didn't poll any of the 'stan's) however Forrest, I've a quibble with your opening volley to Mickey to wit: "you make no sense."
Mickey made perfect sense with: "Good condition used shapers from quality American companies are still very reasonable ($300 to $1200 can get you a very nice shaper) and nice "real" shapers often go for less than scrap weight price" and that comprises over half of his post.
There is no reason to believe that ever again, shapers will be built by anyone, to the rock solid specs of those that go begging for an appropriate price today, though to me, the supply seems to be getting thinner of late......
My crystal ball sez they fall to far too the rear technologically, and that the mindset that demanded unbreakable, rock-crusher performance from machine tools will never be seen again, anywhere on earth.
Were the old guys right? Well, for me, I'm thrilled to find a neglected, over-built monument to the mechanical perfection of yesteryear, for a pittance but in reality, what percentage of the life of the super machines was utilized, half? Could that be justified now, or ever again?
Cuchullain, my choice would be, hold out for the never-to-again-be-duplicated best, some are still around and crying to be put back to tireless work, rather than soulessly scrapped, please..... it will work very hard for you and make you proud every time you step into the shop....
Bob
No vise for either but contrary to some, that can be well remedied, both do have the out-board table support.
Invicta 6MR metal shaper 24" stroke - eBay (item 250629869497 end time May-19-10 12:30:39 PDT) Currently @ $200
24 IN G & E SHAPER KEY SEATER - eBay (item 290435100721 end time May-23-10 10:11:50 PDT) Currently @ $150
Just how inexpensive are the Indian 24's? Or any other size.
A shaper does a niche, very accurate operation in a friends shop. He needed a very good condition one for the work. One in perfect, non-worn condition was very hard for him to find. Through his search he concluded most old shapers would have been in good shape had someone at some point not used the shaper without basic understanding of how it works, specifically the importance of proper lubrication.
who said 'all'? the "all" ascertation is almost a logical impossibility - who's checked every machine?
It can be an economic reality though that the products of a country reaching a market are 'all' or almost all be of abysmal quality without that fact being any sort commentary on the ability or intelligence of the originating country's residents.
Chinese products are mostly crap not because the Chinese are stupid or can only make crap but because the fundamental reason for sourcing from there is low cost; their reason for existing (in a global manufacturing sense) is as the low cost provider - isn't the lowest cost option often the lowest quality as well?
These things change over timed, but so long as your fundamental value proposition is how cheap you are, don't expect dazzling quality leaps...and observing these realities is not racist or a condemnation of the country's citizens.
From what I've seen of Indian imports, and granted its not a huge amount, Mikey D may be right
WizardOfBoz
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Location
- SE PA, Philly
If a good German or Swiss milling machine from a company with a solid reputation costed "X", would anyone here pay "X" for an Indian or Chinese machine, even if inspection revealed superior fit and finish, excellent metallurgy, proven design, and superior features and ease of use in that Chinese or Indian machine? I'm guessing most folks here would not.
So it makes no sense for a Chinese or Indian firm to put the extra effort into the machines, because folks that are buying them (at least outside of India and China) would only pay 0.2 times X for the things anyway. And they will pay 0.2 times X whether the machine has great features and quality, or low quality and no features. I think a lot of the companies use the Sears Craftstman strategy - put a lot of useless features on the tool, and maybe no one will notice the low quality.
Forrest is right: there will be new companies taking over markets and right now those companies may be viewed by some readers here as "tortoises". There will be opportunities in the future for visionaries in every country. Even 1st and 2nd world countries, but I think we will blow it because our business worlds are run by MBAs with no long-term vision, or they are being taken over by governments whose concept of "long-term" is only to the next election. Rational men with their eyes on the bottom line or the poll numbers, but with no concept that the world is not static.
To the OP's point, and to prevent this from being a polemic, it seems that some folks have purchased Indian machines that work well for them. Let's find out about the manufacturer, and the application and duty for which the machine is deemed satisfactory.
I doubt that any rational company today would put the same effort into making a 19th century-technology machine tool that those folks did who, in the early and mid-20th century, had the technical mean and the commercial imperative to perfect the technology and make a machine that would last 100 years. That is, I suspect that if you bought an old Cincinnati shaper and refurbished it fully, it would last longer and run better than any shaper being produced today, anywhere. Of course, refurbing fully a shaper like that might cost you what four or five new Indian machines would! I don't believe any machine produced today will be working 100 years from now, but there may be a Cincinnati shaper or too still oscillating away.
So it makes no sense for a Chinese or Indian firm to put the extra effort into the machines, because folks that are buying them (at least outside of India and China) would only pay 0.2 times X for the things anyway. And they will pay 0.2 times X whether the machine has great features and quality, or low quality and no features. I think a lot of the companies use the Sears Craftstman strategy - put a lot of useless features on the tool, and maybe no one will notice the low quality.
Forrest is right: there will be new companies taking over markets and right now those companies may be viewed by some readers here as "tortoises". There will be opportunities in the future for visionaries in every country. Even 1st and 2nd world countries, but I think we will blow it because our business worlds are run by MBAs with no long-term vision, or they are being taken over by governments whose concept of "long-term" is only to the next election. Rational men with their eyes on the bottom line or the poll numbers, but with no concept that the world is not static.
To the OP's point, and to prevent this from being a polemic, it seems that some folks have purchased Indian machines that work well for them. Let's find out about the manufacturer, and the application and duty for which the machine is deemed satisfactory.
I doubt that any rational company today would put the same effort into making a 19th century-technology machine tool that those folks did who, in the early and mid-20th century, had the technical mean and the commercial imperative to perfect the technology and make a machine that would last 100 years. That is, I suspect that if you bought an old Cincinnati shaper and refurbished it fully, it would last longer and run better than any shaper being produced today, anywhere. Of course, refurbing fully a shaper like that might cost you what four or five new Indian machines would! I don't believe any machine produced today will be working 100 years from now, but there may be a Cincinnati shaper or too still oscillating away.
Robert Campbell Jr.
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
- Location
- Hesperia, SoCal
Dang it Bosely! You had me going "uhuh, uhuh" right up to the very end until, "Of course, refurbing fully a shaper like that might cost you what four or five new Indian machines would!" but I had to jump ship on that assessment, because I believe that a few hundred dollars spent on one of the typically underused shapers, would render it capable of out performing those four or five imports put together, (shaper hour vs shaper hour) and far below their cost.
I did see, "might cost you" but the testimonials from the shaper owning board members have a pretty constant theme, typically little to fix and near total reliability
Even scraping in the ram bearing surfaces shouldn't be that daunting. One thing for sure, that ramless machine would just sit there rock solid while you painted the top shiney part blue and pushed little mounds of fluffy iron accross it. For that matter, the ram inverted in a wooden cradle on the bench, wouldn't do much wiggling either.
Just pass on the shaper with teeth stripped on the bull gear and a ram that rocks.
OK, neither you or the OP have the time, so, pay more for a shaper in excellent condition, (I've seen several) or farm out the "refurbishment" and still be way ahead, in every way, 'cept maybe instant gratification.
Bob
I did see, "might cost you" but the testimonials from the shaper owning board members have a pretty constant theme, typically little to fix and near total reliability
Even scraping in the ram bearing surfaces shouldn't be that daunting. One thing for sure, that ramless machine would just sit there rock solid while you painted the top shiney part blue and pushed little mounds of fluffy iron accross it. For that matter, the ram inverted in a wooden cradle on the bench, wouldn't do much wiggling either.
Just pass on the shaper with teeth stripped on the bull gear and a ram that rocks.
OK, neither you or the OP have the time, so, pay more for a shaper in excellent condition, (I've seen several) or farm out the "refurbishment" and still be way ahead, in every way, 'cept maybe instant gratification.
Bob
WizardOfBoz
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Location
- SE PA, Philly
Bob,
I defer to your greater expertise in the area of costing refurbishment. I'm inferring that cost from a review of AP_Mech's refurbishment of his DoAll band saw. Expertise at that level (an Airframe and Powerplant mechanic's qualifications aren't exactly chopped liver) in the refurbishing realm (and finding someone who gives a damn about the final product in that same realm) can't come cheap, I figure.
So. What would it cost to refurb a 24" Cincinnati? Assuming ways are worn, strip, paint, scrap, re-bore any worn bosses, replace bearings, refurb or replace motor, replace (and upgrade) controls if needed, and so forth?
J
I defer to your greater expertise in the area of costing refurbishment. I'm inferring that cost from a review of AP_Mech's refurbishment of his DoAll band saw. Expertise at that level (an Airframe and Powerplant mechanic's qualifications aren't exactly chopped liver) in the refurbishing realm (and finding someone who gives a damn about the final product in that same realm) can't come cheap, I figure.
So. What would it cost to refurb a 24" Cincinnati? Assuming ways are worn, strip, paint, scrap, re-bore any worn bosses, replace bearings, refurb or replace motor, replace (and upgrade) controls if needed, and so forth?
J
Robert Campbell Jr.
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
- Location
- Hesperia, SoCal
'Bout the price of 4 or 5 new imports, divided by 2.
Hell, no way to put a dollar figure on that sight unseen, but all that "ways are worn, strip, paint, scrap, re-bore any worn bosses, replace bearings, refurb or replace motor, replace (and upgrade) controls if needed, and so forth" moves this hypothetical shaper close to the "I'll pass" pile. I've never seen one that far gone. Kevin Potter's great rusted hulk was much better than that and he not only reserected it in a short while but he says he gets paying work from it daily. Cost: free.
Big Nasty Shaper- Before & After shots - Windows Live
And while by no means am I an expert at refurbishment, I've never been able to justify the cost of new machines, so I don't shy from polishing up a gem in the rough. Even if I could justify the cost of new, they quit making any machine I'm interested in before I ever had a place to put them. Hey, I like shapers, 'nuff said?
Bob
MyrtleLake
Stainless
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2008
- Location
- Chicago, IL
Actually, I agree with Bosely. A quality rebuilder will quote to replace ALL worn parts. Since no new parts are available, that means custom manufacturing them. Once, out of half curiosity and half amusement, I asked for a rough quote from a high quality rebuilder for an Atlas 7". They returned $30k. You can call that Bullshit, but I'm just sayin'... that was their number.
Regardless, the OP wants a new machine. Whether buying used and paying for rebuilding or just buying new outright, the OP has no interest in fixing, checking, fiddling, etc. I can respect that. I expect he wants a very tight tolerance machine from the very first cut.
If it's so cheap, why not bid the job? Buy a clapped out shaper for fifty bucks, rebuild it to hold +/-.0002" across all axis travels, repaint, fully disassemble, clean, reassemble, remanufacture all parts with wear to original manufacturer's spec's (or as close as you can guess on that point). What's your number?
Regardless, the OP wants a new machine. Whether buying used and paying for rebuilding or just buying new outright, the OP has no interest in fixing, checking, fiddling, etc. I can respect that. I expect he wants a very tight tolerance machine from the very first cut.
If it's so cheap, why not bid the job? Buy a clapped out shaper for fifty bucks, rebuild it to hold +/-.0002" across all axis travels, repaint, fully disassemble, clean, reassemble, remanufacture all parts with wear to original manufacturer's spec's (or as close as you can guess on that point). What's your number?
Co2 mech
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2009
- Location
- Nebraska, USA
Made in Spain?
Republic Lagun Machine Tool Company - Shapers These guys still make a shaper. I haven't looked into the pricing but Lagun is a reputable brand.
Republic Lagun Machine Tool Company - Shapers These guys still make a shaper. I haven't looked into the pricing but Lagun is a reputable brand.
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WizardOfBoz
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Location
- SE PA, Philly
30K for a 7 inch, wow! I'm guessing though, that a 24" is not much more. True, you have more bearing surface area, but some aspects of taking the thing apart, stripping it, and putting it back together again is not scaleable. Perhaps the old hands will chide me and say that scraping 24 inch ways is MORE expensive than 24/7 time what it cost to do 7 inch ways....
But if you had a 24 inch shaper that held +/-0.0002, you would have a pretty capable machine. You could make a dovetail way for a new saddle for your Monarch 10ee with only about 8 setup steps!
When folks were paid 0.25/hr, and you had thousands of guys that could scrape ways in any city of any size, I guess the cost of refurb was lower.
I ramble, though. Arthur, I recently posted a question about precision grinding the top of a worn rotab, and was taken to task for being too aggressive. Not only would I have screwed up the worm/wheel alignment, I would be removing "patina". I think that at least part of the criticism is proper. Got me thinking. So I am rethinking my "strip to the metal" philosophy. Maybe it's best that I live that dream vicariously by reading AP_Mech's threads!
If Bob is right (and he usually is) then getting a reasonably good old orphan is possible, cheap, and with a few hundred or thousand invested...? If you got a shaper and the ways were good, and you didn't care about paint, so that all you needed to do was replace some bushings and bearings (not trivial, but less of a project than a down-to-metal rebuild) you'd probably have a good machine that has some niches where it would compete favorably.
Jim
But if you had a 24 inch shaper that held +/-0.0002, you would have a pretty capable machine. You could make a dovetail way for a new saddle for your Monarch 10ee with only about 8 setup steps!
When folks were paid 0.25/hr, and you had thousands of guys that could scrape ways in any city of any size, I guess the cost of refurb was lower.
I ramble, though. Arthur, I recently posted a question about precision grinding the top of a worn rotab, and was taken to task for being too aggressive. Not only would I have screwed up the worm/wheel alignment, I would be removing "patina". I think that at least part of the criticism is proper. Got me thinking. So I am rethinking my "strip to the metal" philosophy. Maybe it's best that I live that dream vicariously by reading AP_Mech's threads!
If Bob is right (and he usually is) then getting a reasonably good old orphan is possible, cheap, and with a few hundred or thousand invested...? If you got a shaper and the ways were good, and you didn't care about paint, so that all you needed to do was replace some bushings and bearings (not trivial, but less of a project than a down-to-metal rebuild) you'd probably have a good machine that has some niches where it would compete favorably.
Jim
Manek sounds familiar to me...maybe I saw their display at a show somewhere, but just can't remember if they are "good" or "bad"
HMT (Hindu Machine Tool) seems to be the main player in Indian machine tools, dunno if they make a shaper, but I've found their machines pretty decent. Batiboi may be ok too but is probably all CNC these days. My 1992 guide to Indian machines shows shapers by Kirloskar and Pathak of aprox 24 inch stroke that look nice in the photos, but can't say if they really are nice or not.
dp
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2005
- Location
- Puget Sound, Washington
Mickey D said all. It is implicit in and the only possible understanding of his statement. "Machinery made in India" logically cannot include machinery not made in India, and leaves no room for any subsets of machinery made in India to be excluded. "Machinery made in India" is the universal set. The full statement then is that all machinery made in India is inferior to all other machinery, it is all inferior to anything made in China which suggests there is an index of quality of Chinese goods that the people of India fail by intent to improve upon.
In other words, Forrest is quite correct.
Robert Campbell Jr.
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
- Location
- Hesperia, SoCal
OK dp.....after your most succinct semantics analysis, I understand that Mickey D was amiss in being absolute, (error by colloquiality I suspect) in denigrating Indian machinery manufacturing en toto but wait, I always did understand...that, as I'm sure most did.
While on the subject of error by Mickey's over-reaching totality:
What I had trouble reconciling was the totality of Forrest's: "you make no sense" as applied to Mickey's 83 word post, in which these 52 words are to be found: "Good condition used shapers from quality American companies are still very reasonable ($300 to $1200 can get you a very nice shaper) and nice "real" shapers often go for less than scrap weight price"
So I'm sure dp, you can understand my difficulty when once again I encounter error by totality of statement, yours:
In Forrest's defense, (as if he needs me to defend him
) he is following in the footsteps of our esteemed leader and host, with very similar, all-inclusive pronouncements such as Forrest's: "you make no sense". In fact, Forrest may be guilty of outright, verbatim plagiarism in this regard, a search might be revealing, (aren't they supposed to be?).....
...surely he can't read every word of every post can he?...
I'll quit trying to be "cute" here, Mickey's point, the majority of his 83 word post, is demonstrably accurate, yet was dismissed out-of-hand by the totality of "no", while this dismissal was because of his over-reaching with totality! ...can't find an irony emoticon... so... "where angels fear to tread....."
Bob.FWIW, all of you chattering on about what he should or shouldn't do are as per usual making certain assumptions that may or may not be true about what he actually wants. For all we know he has an application that requires a brand new shaper for company/bureaucratic reasons Or maybe he is thinking of importing them to sell. Or ? Regardless, best to just answer his question first.
