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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Now is the time to say we will survive and that in my day we walked in the snow storm to school and back, five miles uphill both ways.
    You didn't have to wrap bobwahr around your feet for traction ? Lucky guy !

    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    About the only thing I feel I could recommend as a safe antiviral "booster" is raw garlic ...

    [Not to make light of it, but even this may be ineffective as the damn thing has ravaged Italy]
    But on the bright side, there is credible evidence that the number of vampire attacks is way down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machinistrrt View Post
    Monday morning lawyering should be banned.
    This is another reason for the ridiculous cost of health care in the US. Real malpractice (amputating the wrong leg, for example) should be dealt with but the rest of it ? Bah humbug.

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    How to mitigate Coronavirus?!?

    Here:

  4. #124
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    Default Latest official list of CV-19 disinfecting products

    The is the current list of "officially recognized" disinfecting products put out by the US EPA. It's over 350 items, so you have to page through or search if looking for something specific.

    List N: Disinfectants for Use Against SARS-CoV-2 | Pesticide Registration | US EPA

    As always, just having the right thing isn't enough - you've got to use it correctly, and for long enough to have it be effective.

    This is a living document, so check it every so often for revisions.

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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Michiganbuck,
    You are a seasoned grinder hand here in my area.
    Exposed to God knows what over a career and survived.
    Why chase this "news"? The same info says you dead from carbide long ago yet here we stand.
    So many bad things in the past and now, why are you still alive when many others are passed?
    Did you really have better PPE or took more care? How often did you not do any of that in the last 50 years? Gone home and blew your nose and black crap?

    Now is not the time to think fear Now is the time to say we will survive and that in my day we walked in the snow storm to school and back, five miles uphill both ways.
    We need to inspire faith, hope, whatever you call it.
    This You-tube works or hurts is just bad science.

    Both you and I try to find something.
    We like to fix things, it is in our nature and so hard to stop that drive. Our life mantra is "If I can not fix it, it is not broken".
    But we are not trained in it and the information is so shoddy.
    Bob
    Absolutely correct. At this point in time the hysteria is likely to do far greater harm than ANY virus could. As of this morning ...

    No Amazon Fresh delivery windows, and local workers for a food delivery service are threatening to go on strike if their demands are not met.

    Amazon workers at a distribution center also threatening to strike because a couple of workers tested positive.

    Several states implementing roadblocks to screen for people coming in from certain states. Talk of draconian measures if people don't obey orders.

    Predictions that many brick and mortar retailers will NEVER reopen, as "experts" demand the country remain shutdown till at least June 1, preferably longer.

    Even if a disease were far deadlier than this one the majority would survive. How many will survive a prolonged shutdown?

    cv_beentheredonethat.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Not as well known as the Novartis product and perhaps a better choice would be Glaxo Smith Kline Mosquirix a recombinant protein-based Malaria vaccine with having uses Qs -21 a stimulant adjuvant made from the Quillaja saponaria (soap bark tree) a product of Agenus found to boost immune response in older adults who often experience age related decline in immunity. I m not sure if it is USA approved at this time. IMHO

    https://www.malariavaccine.org/files...heet_FINAL.pdf

    Qs -21 added to the Novartis product likely would make that vaccine better. IMHO
    It would be small miracle if Mosquirix works for Covid-19 as Malaria and Covid are literally different sort of animals. Malaria is worm-like parasite and Covid is virus.
    Chloroquine working for both Malaria and Covid-19 is just a weird coincidence and based on quick look Mosquirix has totally different sort of effect than -chloroquine.

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  9. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nice Guy View Post
    This is a current discussion of the effectiveness of the N95 mask by it's inventor:
    University of Tennessee Research Foundation
    It includes information on how to sterilize the mask for reuse without ruining its filtration properties.
    hm, "number mean diameter" = 75 nm, "mass mean diameter" = 260 nm. what is that?

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    I will end with this because it is interesting, the numbers in the UK, compare the numbers
    Tested to deaths 1228 / 127,737=.0096 (29 March, 2020)
    The UK has higher numbers than the USA by population cases and deaths comparison.
    * Likely with precautions and the world looking for cures the numbers should go down (IMHO).
    Plus, I am rarely 9 or 10 pounds over weight, I can walk 10 miles like it is around the block, I rarely get sick, I one arm curl 35 pounders in reps. and I started surface grinding in the early 60s..... adis
    Coronavirus: UK statistics on cases, tests and deaths, day-by-day <-This is the link to data.
    29 March, 2020
    • Deaths: 1,228
    • Positive: 19,522
    • Negative: 108,215
    • Tested: 127,737

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    hm, "number mean diameter" = 75 nm, "mass mean diameter" = 260 nm. what is that?
    dian, I looked for a graphic to explain this. Unfortunately the best one I found had an error! In dealing with small particles, the micrometer is often used. That is, m. When you use that unit for particle diameter, volume is generally given in micrometers to the third power. That is (m). They forgot to put the exponent on the pic below.

    Basically, I can compute the number average diameter as (sum of diameters for each particle)/number of particles. Dn = Sum(D)/n. That's pretty easy.

    The volume of a spherical particle is 1/6 π D. The average volume is then V = Sum(1/6 π D)/n. If I have an "average volume", V, I can calculate a hypothetical diameter using Dv = cube root(6 V/π) = cube root (Sum(D/n)).

    So number average diameter is just the average of all the diameters. Volume (and mass) average diameter is the cube root of the average of the cubed diameter.

    Mass is this times density. So mass of a particle is 1/6 π D rho. You can compute the average mass, and back up a mass average diameter but if the densities of all the particles is the same the densities cancel out and mass average diameter equals volume average diameter. Dm = Dv.

    These are just different ways of calculating a representative value for diameter. They are each good for different purposes. The volume (and mass) averages give greater weight to large particles. For virus filters, I'd think that you want to reduce the number of particles getting through, so maybe number average would be better. I think.

    For a concrete example, the picture below shows a hypothetical set of different sized particles. 9 particles in (for convenience) three different sizes. The number average diameter is Dn = 2 m (that is, 18/9). The volume average would be summing all 9 particle volumes which is (contrary to the picture) 56.5 (m). Dividing by 9, one gets the average volume, 6.283 (m). Calculating a diameter from this volume gives Dv = 2.29m.

    particle_volume.jpg

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    thanks, i got it. so the virus is 75 nm in diameter, right? when using an arithmetic average. so my thinking that a n95 mask doesnt protect seems supported. i wonder if a filter for volatile solvents (paint booth) catches the virus? im shure the gas mask i stole in the military 30 years ago for exactly such occasions would do it.
    Last edited by dian; 03-31-2020 at 02:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    thanks, i got it. so the virus is 75 nm in diameter, right? when using an arithmetic average. so my thinking that a n95 mask doesnt protect seem supported. i wonder if a filter for volatile solvents (paint booth) catches the virus? im shure the gas mask i stole in the military 30 years ago for exactly such occasions would do it.
    Did you read the excellent article on masks referenced by Nice Guy?

    Electrostatic charge is what makes the masks work, not opening size. As the particles migrate through the openings (think convoluted passageways) they get attracted to the walls of the opening and stick there. This is how they catch dust also.

    I strongly suggest anyone interested in masks download a copy and refer to it. I found the remark about sterilizing with steam very interesting. To be successful a cleaning method must neither degrade the material nor greatly reduce its charge. Worth reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    thanks, i got it. so the virus is 75 nm in diameter, right? when using an arithmetic average. so my thinking that a n95 mask doesnt protect seem supported. i wonder if a filter for volatile solvents (paint booth) catches the virus? im shure the gas mask i stole in the military 30 years ago for exactly such occasions would do it.
    I think it's fair to say a regular N95 mask won't stop individual virus particles. But they'll usually be clustered with water and other things (mucus) so they'd mostly be larger aggregates. Certainly when sneezing this would be the case, so one could look at mask wearing as protecting others, if not always the wearer.

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    What happens with a sneeze, shown at different distances with the last being the most significant:
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Could do.

    Folks who drop live-wired corded ones into their bathwater don't usually die of any virus atall.
    Last edited by thermite; 03-31-2020 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nice Guy View Post
    What happens with a sneeze, shown at different distances with the last being the most significant:
    YouTube
    Scary enuf, but even with going out seldom for vittles, having waaay less "sampling" than usual, I haven't seen ANY public sneezing, masked or not.

    What could be of more use is data as to how far ORDINARY respiration moves pathogens, relative to their ability to survive in free air long enough to infect their next target.

    One suspects it is "bad news"? VERY!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    . . .

    Even if a disease were far deadlier than this one the majority would survive. How many will survive a prolonged shutdown?
    I'm not so pessimistic. Especially if we follow a middle course of keeping essential businesses open and using social distancing based on numbers from actual testing.

    Already laid out elsewhere in PM are ways we can keep most businesses going, just as soon as testing ramps up.

    From a lessons-learned-from-history, this chart: U.S. Real GDP Per Capita (1900 - 2017): Current Economy vs Historical Trend Line | BFI

    There are three lessons to be learned IMO:

    1) First, the Spanish Flu turns out to be a blip in the chart. Even with our first couple months screw-up, we're in far better shape to combat this pandemic. The Spanish Flu went through multiple cycles between lockdowns. We barely knew what to do in terms of testing, treatments, vaccines. And, yet, despite the millions lost, the economy recovered.

    2) Second lesson is the Great Depression. Now there's something with a big economic impact.

    3) Third lesson is the Great Recession. Notice that from Obama and through Trump we've been back to growth, but on a different and lower growth line (the data doesn't show the latest recession). My own take on this is that for a variety of factors (population, debt, resources, climate . . .) that the post-industrial model assuming something like continual 3% growth rate and thus infinite resources to support it will be increasingly exposed as the fantasy it (mathematically) is.

    What may not (and should not) survive is the notion that sustainability isn't an issue. Our economy, like populations (and virus spread for that matter) follows a logistic curve. One choice is continued boom and bust - we've been doing that about every decade. Another choice is a more sustainable economy; perhaps with "growth" in less tangibly-resource-intensive arenas.

    gdp-growth.jpg

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  22. #138
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    Here in Spain, most of the local people want to wear masks or diy shields.
    Imo this is mostly feel-good syndrome with zero basis in facts and probably negative health results aka you catch the virus easier.
    If You get exposure you are more likely to rub it in You, by adjusting Your mask.

    In Finland and Sweden, pretty much the most sophisticated and developed countries with free healthcare and the best healthcare in the world, more or less, masks are not recommended for normal people.

    Healthcare workers treating 20 patients a day exfoliating are a totally different case.
    They need a mask.


    Using gloves for touching common surfaces, garbage containers, elevators, atms, doors, is probably a good idea.

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    Maybe just as credible as some other theories that were expounded here in recent days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    But it was kind of a serious question. I'd rather go to sleep peacefully than do the tubes and ecmo thing, I'm old enough to make my own choices, and they could use the ventilator for someone else. Bos or other real medical people, what would likely happen ?
    First, a noble question, which machinistrrt answered well below. The only added suggestion would be to have a copy of the paperwork taped to the fridge, and taped to the headboard of your bed. In an envelope with "MEDICAL DIRECTIVES" And make sure that any loved one knows what you want, and where the papers are.

    Second, you should not say "Bos or other real medical people". I've read a couple of books on physiology. I have an EMT that's expired. In fact, the only time I used my EMT, the guy died (in my defense it was a head-on car accident and the passenger wasn't wearing a seatbelt), so my "medical record" is 0-1. So if someone says he's an MD, that's real. Or a Nurse Practitioner or Physician's Assistant, or an RN or a Registered Therapist, that's real. I've tried not to practice or prescribe medicines in my notes, and hopefully what folks have heard is "check with someone with the training and experience, and who's interviewed you and given you a medical exam, to give you good advice".

    You could say "Bos or real medical people" (omit the "other"). I don't have the honor of being in that latter group

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