O.T.~ Permanent Magnet 12v. winch motor

This winch had sat unused for a few years...went to use it and it's seized up.
I took it apart, and find it'd drawn moisture, the rotor wouldn't turn because of rust between it and the magnets making up the poles.

It's a "Superwinch"....

Each pole is made up of 4 pieces making a whole half. You can't really make it out in the photo because of all the particles of rust and gunk.

The bolts holding the motor to the winch run between and separate the poles. They were swelled up with rust.

Anyhow, taking it apart, I find that there was some sort of adhesive holding the magnets in place in the housing. The adhesive had failed.

I cleaned out everything... got the magnets put back in place.. but have come to the conclusion that it won't work without the magnets being fastened in place. Without that glue, as soon as you put the rotor through, the magnets are attracted to it and pull away from the motor housing.

Not spending a $100 on a new motor.. I have another winch I can use. Upon further googling... they are a common DC motor..(short shaft, with a tang on the end)... and found one for $71.. still....

I just hate to let it go without a fight.

What adhesive would I use?

A good many years ago I had to remove a flywheel on a small horsepower motor to get at the ignition points. (A long time ago). The magnets in the flywheel for the battery charger were attached with adhesive and some of them came loose when I removed the flywheel. I reattached the magnets with a good grade of epoxy and they stayed put for years as long as I used the big tiller the engine was on.

JoeE. said:

I just hate to let it go without a fight.

What adhesive would I use?

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Portland cement, 3" gradation of aggregate.

I'd put it far enough down "Miss Utility" doesn't get confused when marking buried power lines, but no more than that.

Small animals are not likely to dig it up.

Average burrowing rodent has the sense to avoid those.

Whatever you try, make sure it is heat-tolerant! While winches often don't run long, they often do run hard.

Before you go much farther, if the motor got water
in it, how is the gearbox and brake ?

Well, it didn't set in water... it's been out in the weather, under it's ill fitting plastic cover/housing... for probably 15 years.

I am probably the last person to use it, and that was in 2007. It's just been setting out on it's perch on a trailer tongue all these years.

I guess I could go to the hardware store and get some of that "handy-man's" 2 part epoxy in the plunger tube dispenser and give it a whirl.

What's hard is getting the magnets in the proper position.... it's a trial and error proposition. I need to make some dividers that will attach to the housing and guide the magnets, with adhesive, into the right place.
I'll have to work on that.

Joe, I didn't say anything about it sitting in water.

But if water ingressed into the motor, it may have continued on
out the shaft to the gearbox.

or however it got in the motor (vent or other hole) it may have
also gotten in the other parts too.

Gordon Heaton said:

Whatever you try, make sure it is heat-tolerant! While winches often don't run long, they often do run hard.

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Gordon is correct. This is especially true when it comes to Chinese motors and relay coils because they skimp on copper and overheat very quickly. I would use JB Epoxy. I have had very good luck with that encapsulating stator coils on motorcycle alternators.

Most sealed motors sat outside gradually fill up with condensation and then corrode, its a really common problem. I see it oftern with the fundair stuff i repair, sealed outdoor motors have to have clear drain holes else its just a case of how long till failure.

Magnet position and radial orientation around the motor matter greatly as in sub degree accuracy to the brush gear. Equally having been out and separated from the rotor - housing they have probably now lost so much magnetism, your winch will be a hell of a lot weaker even if you do put them back right. Have had real mixed success glueing magnets, normally i use epoxy, i also like to use tuffnol spacers bettwen the magnet segments glued in so the magnets are also held in place kinda mechanically. This greatly reduces rates of failure when motors get a bit hotter than they should. Theres no need to go crazzy on this though as most magnets will lose magnatism and most winding insulations will break down at about the same temp as the epoxy fails at.

Does magnetic pole orientation matter? Did you mark the magnets so they can be replaced in the same direction they were in to start with?

I agree with the condensation theory.

When I began the disassembly, a magnet came out with the rotor.

I wondered if the maybe the magnets didn't need to be in a particular location and orientation.

I removed them in a certain order and marked them. During cleaning, markings disappeared.

May be a lost cause... At least I've got as nice set of reversing solenoids.

Haven't had this much cheap entertainment since repairing a $1.95 porcelain pull-string light fixture my bean-counter mechanically-klewless Boss (his basement light) repaid with an expensive lunch out of shock and awe at such skillful MAGIC!

Remove the armature from the magnets/housing and the magnet fields deteriorate immediately and spoil the motor.

Magnets must be in a specific position for torque/speed characteristics of motor

China made motors use better materials, meet or exceed manufacturers specs, and have much better quality control (way less expensive too)

You will learn the last one while kicking and screaming, but it's true

Pathogen said:

China made motors use better materials, meet or exceed manufacturers specs, and have much better quality control (way less expensive too)

You will learn the last one while kicking and screaming, but it's true

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You must be Chinese to make a bold ass statement like that. Now, I can't say that I have measured every motor and magnetic coil made in China for DC resistance and inductive reactance, but I have measured many and every one I did measure was copper short.

Yeah, but you can be shorter on copper if you have stronger magnets! China rear earths are cheaper, hence generally Chinese magnets don't have as much cost cutting as other origin ones do so are generally stronger for a given size.

Equally the rare earth magnets do a lot lot better at not losing magmatism on motor disassembly like larger ferrite magnets tend too.

JoeE. said:

I agree with the condensation theory.

When I began the disassembly, a magnet came out with the rotor.

I wondered if the maybe the magnets didn't need to be in a particular location and orientation.

I removed them in a certain order and marked them. During cleaning, markings disappeared.

May be a lost cause... At least I've got as nice set of reversing solenoids.

Click to expand...

if the magnets are not broken and in a dozen pieces then getting them back in will be fairly easy. there are as many poles as the number of brushes. which looks like two poles to me due to the placement of the two through bolts in the original photo.

if you get the polarity wrong then the motor spins the wrong way, easy fix, reverse the polarity at the motor terminals.

at the moment i would assume that in the original photo the magnets to the left are north and the right south, or the opposite. but the bolt is in the middle between the polarities.

but it looks like the magnets are split axially. you should have 2 that are north inside and 2 that are south inside. correct orientation is n on one side and s on the other relative to the bolts.

they will naturally want to attract n to s and s to n so the easiest way to get them back in will be s and n on one side and n to s on the other, which will result in no motor torque at all.

for your motor you can actually try all 4 combinations, two of which will give you torque, the other two zero, but only one of the 4 combinations will result in torque and the motor spinning the correct direction.

Pathogen said:

Remove the armature from the magnets/housing and the magnet fields deteriorate immediately and spoil the motor.

Magnets must be in a specific position for torque/speed characteristics of motor

China made motors use better materials, meet or exceed manufacturers specs, and have much better quality control (way less expensive too)

You will learn the last one while kicking and screaming, but it's true

Click to expand...

Wait...What?! What the what?! You've got to be kidding. Or did I just enter Bizarro-World? All the Chinese-made motors I've seen have been awful. Many are nameplate rated to twice their actual capabilities no less. And I have personal experience with the poor quality of plenty of China-sourced raw materials. Please give some specific examples of these high quality motors that are very likely to be a myth in my mind. And I'm talking about actual China sourced motors - not motors made in a U.S. or reputable Euro etc. brand factory in China.

Regarding the magnet timing, yes it's important. It can be corrected if you don't have the original reference marks anymore. Neutral timing would be such that the motor spins equal RPM in either direction. Advancing in one direction will alter the RPM balance - I.E. tweaking the timing from that point where the motor runs at equal RPM in both directions will make it run faster in one direction and slower in the other (power also changes). A winch motor might have been timed to run stronger in the direction that spools the cable in.

If you are going to glue them in, to help install the magnets you should make a pilot from aluminum or even wood that will hold the magnets in place while the epoxy dries. Check the motor can I.D. and subtract double your magnet thickness and a smidge for clearance to get the pilot diameter. Many motors have metal springs between the magnets instead of or in addition to using adhesive, you might want to try that too.

I've got a couple of these Superwinch jobbies laying around too that I got from my girlfriend's dad's garage after he died. Guess I'd better check them to see if they're knackered.