Open source ventilator? Time for us to make it happen.
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    Default Open source ventilator? Time for us to make it happen.

    This will be a cross forum post.

    With whats going down, I feel it prudent for us as manufacturing leaders to step up.
    There IS available spindle time out there.

    So, Im asking you all.
    What can we do to hammer out the parts we need to build up the ventilators that ARE going to be needed?
    And fast?

    I imagine we need electronics, as well as plastics\rubber teams to get involved.

    I will be approaching my contacts, but I feel this needs to be a continental\global movement.

    Gentlemen, its time to make a stand for your country, and your family.

    God bless,

    Stu

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    What does this entail for electronics/software?

    I'm sure there are thousands of shops that can build the parts, but if you need control circuits and software that's out of the wheelhouse of a lot of manufacturing folks.

    I'm all for it and more than happy to help.

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    There are lots of people here that are capable of the electronics\software end of things.
    Ive reached out to my contacts regarding the software.

    Im simply looking to galvanize the manufacturing guys here.
    This is a community second to none in that regard.

    I really believe that we could smash out machines at an unbelievable rate.

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    My post vanished. I was wondering if an iron lung style device would work. They are bulky but I think they could be manufactured pretty quickly in usable quantities as there should be a lot of places that can contribute making parts compared to modern ventilators. Ventilators look like they have a lot of molded plastic parts. Of course a lot of those parts are molded to save time and cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    My post vanished. I was wondering if an iron lung style device would work. They are bulky but I think they could be manufactured pretty quickly in usable quantities as there should be a lot of places that can contribute making parts compared to modern ventilators. Ventilators look like they have a lot of molded plastic parts. Of course a lot of those parts are molded to save time and cost.
    Your post is in another thread, OP started 4 of these, all the same. I hope a mod will combine them all into one before there is to much confusion.
    I think it's a great idea, a drawing will be needed ASAP to know what needs making.
    Also CAN it be fast tracked and if so how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    There are lots of people here that are capable of the electronics\software end of things.
    Ive reached out to my contacts regarding the software.

    Im simply looking to galvanize the manufacturing guys here.
    This is a community second to none in that regard.

    I really believe that we could smash out machines at an unbelievable rate.
    I've watched more than a few seemingly basic mechanical/electrical things smashed to a halt because a modern U/I was required.

    So... What are we building?

    What standards apply for a hospital to use these in USA/Canada? Furthermore who sets those standards and who can make exceptions?

    What does it need for a U/I?

    What can the pumping element be made from? flexible diaphragm?

    Can it be punched and formed from stainless, brass or copper?

    "Build a ventilator" is not a great idea. Build thousands of ventilators that work great and hospitals WILL actually use the fuckers would be a WIN for everyone.

    Where's that ISO guy with too much money and so much spare time he designed a tool holder holder. Get him to buy all the motors and pay for the boards.

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    I think you're underestimating the amount of engineering that goes into these things. And the approvals required before any hospital would even touch it. And the liability involved in case you took any shortcuts.

    It's a nice idea, but not something you're going to put together in a couple of months. Couple years, maybe.

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    The laws in the US that govern medical devices will not support bringing a new device to market in huge hurry without enormous amounts of testing and data.

    Find a company that already has a product that is approved for use in the US and contact them.

    Offer your assistance in ramping up the production of their design.

    That is how to make your desires and energy count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwearing View Post
    I think you're underestimating the amount of engineering that goes into these things.
    While the sentiment of the post by jwearing is good, I would like to clarify this statement. Not saying jwearing is right or wrong, just clarifying.

    Ventilators are dirt simple. The mechanism is public knowledge and open source (both types). Check out Draeger for a basic idea of how they work. The software for specific ventilation types is where it can get funky —> the old, tried-and-true ventilator modes are simple, well known and basically open source. The new, fancy-smancy ventilator modes are proprietary and companies won’t give it up.

    The problem is what others have mentioned. Medical devices must be produced in a FDA registered facility and the company selling them must be with the FDA too. As another has mentioned, if there is a call for parts of ventilators to be made (by some powers-that-be), then the best help would to be ready to drop everything and manufacture that requested part to the best and fullest of your ability ASAP.

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    Build a ventilator! A ventilator to be used in hospitals and other care facilities to treat HUMAN patients. And you have no idea of the proper software, much less any standards that the hardware will be required to meet? Or what medical conditions it is expected to monitor? Or what patents exist to protect the present hardware and software?

    I hate to sound like the voice of doom here, but the VERY FIRST thing that you need to do is to make sure you AND EVERYONE ELSE who you involve in this is 100% completely covered by insurance. If such a device were used, there will be deaths of the patients who use it. That is sad, but is not avoidable. And then there will be lawsuits.

    This sounds like an excellent idea, but I think that if you are going to carry it out you need to get in partnership with someone who knows about these and other things involved. And someone who already has the needed insurance.

    Please don't get me wrong. I think this is an excellent and noble idea and I would feel privileged to participate to whatever extent possible. Perhaps the best way to do something about this would be to volunteer to work at the companies which already make the ventilators: perhaps a night shift thing. But then, there's unions and laws about working for free. Perhaps offer our services to make parts to THEIR specs. or do assembly work as a contractor, but at a good, low price. They would inspect those parts and take on any legal/financial responsibility.

    This is not something that can be done at the drop of a hat.

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    Okay, if the ventilator is out, how about an open source ecmo machine then ?

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    Ventilators have to provide positive and negative pressure to inflate and deflate the lungs. To achieve that you have to insert tubes into the persons mouth or nose, which should only be done by trained medical personnel. Hence you won't see a DIY ventilators used by people.

    What I think would be useful is a simple kit to allow oxygen generation from water by electrolysis. The user can fasten an exit tube near the nose so that higher oxygen content air gets into the lungs even though the lungs only partially inflate. This way, the ventilators in the hospitals can be used for people who can't breath at all, while the people who can breath, just not very well, can be on their own oxygen source at home; freeing up ventilators in hospitals for the really sick ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Build a ventilator! A ventilator to be used in hospitals and other care facilities to treat HUMAN patients. And you have no idea of the proper software, much less any standards that the hardware will be required to meet? Or what medical conditions it is expected to monitor? Or what patents exist to protect the present hardware and software?

    I hate to sound like the voice of doom here, but the VERY FIRST thing that you need to do is to make sure you AND EVERYONE ELSE who you involve in this is 100% completely covered by insurance. If such a device were used, there will be deaths of the patients who use it. That is sad, but is not avoidable. And then there will be lawsuits.

    This sounds like an excellent idea, but I think that if you are going to carry it out you need to get in partnership with someone who knows about these and other things involved. And someone who already has the needed insurance.

    Please don't get me wrong. I think this is an excellent and noble idea and I would feel privileged to participate to whatever extent possible. Perhaps the best way to do something about this would be to volunteer to work at the companies which already make the ventilators: perhaps a night shift thing. But then, there's unions and laws about working for free. Perhaps offer our services to make parts to THEIR specs. or do assembly work as a contractor, but at a good, low price. They would inspect those parts and take on any legal/financial responsibility.

    This is not something that can be done at the drop of a hat.
    We both know this aint rocket science.
    How are you gunna feel when YOUR Granny is at home suckin' at air?
    Think youre really going to GAF all of a sudden?

    Trump just dropped service hours for truckers (thats usual under emergency at state level)
    Maybe its time to allow for some help from the manufacturing sector .
    dont clutch your pearls too tightly.

    Let us make what needs to be made. Fawk off with the regulations... see us prosper.

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    To do what is being proposed here there would need to be the equivalent of a General Groves (WWII).

    Tom

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    We just appointed Lt. Rouleau as joint Chief
    This is a man that doesnt F around.

    I am feeling that my offer is being severly discounted.
    As such. At this moment, I am withdrawing.

    I wish you all the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    I am feeling that my offer is being severly discounted.
    No, it was a good idea but impractical. But you need 2,531 ideas to sort thru to get the 5 that will work. No penalty for being one of the ones that doesn't make the cut. At least you showed up for tryouts !

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    No, it was a good idea but impractical. But you need 2,531 ideas to sort thru to get the 5 that will work. No penalty for being one of the ones that doesn't make the cut. At least you showed up for tryouts !

    At least I attempted to put an effort forth.... suppose.

    Greatest cock block encountered, not that any idea wouldnt work.... but rather "daddy gov't would'nt approve"
    Thouught you fellas got that figured out back around 1776.

    Oh, EM... youre better then them Yankee bastards, right?

    You're no fool.

    You know a fucking bicycle pump on a linear actuator would "work".

    I dont even know what to say at this point.

    "Oh, make sure the government approves of it!"

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    I dont think I could have got a more negative reaction from most of Y'all if I wanted to get help for Jethro and BillyBob to do this in their back yard/dog kennel. They would do it with a shop vac that was dug fron the 7-11 trash can after it shut down from cleaning clogged toilets, and an old tow truck engine driven air compressor that pumps more oil than air. All the rest of the bits would have been from the dump or broken cars in their side yard.
    Is Jethro BillyBobs son or his brother or cousin or all of the above? Hard to count more than 12 due to 6 toes per foot...between them they can get to almost thirty.
    Cue deliverance music here.

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    Why are you giving up?

    Us Fins have this ability or disability we call Sisu. We mis-interpret naysayers as cheerleaders. Usually works out surprisingly well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    At least I attempted to put an effort forth.... suppose.

    Greatest cock block encountered, not that any idea wouldnt work.... but rather "daddy gov't would'nt approve"
    Thouught you fellas got that figured out back around 1776.

    Oh, EM... youre better then them Yankee bastards, right?

    You're no fool.

    You know a fucking bicycle pump on a linear actuator would "work".

    I dont even know what to say at this point.

    "Oh, make sure the government approves of it!"
    I think it is commendable to try to come up with solutions however you have an insufficient understanding of getting a ventilator to actually work well enough to actually allow the patient to survive.

    A bicycle pump on a linear actuator would very likely quickly kill the very person you are trying to save the life of.

    To make this really work, you need to sedate the patient and paralyze the breathing muscles. Medically this gets very complicated between monitoring vitals and maintaining the proper level of sedation.

    Here is a more detailed response I posted in the other thread:

    There is confusion in this thread of what it is, what a ventilator does and in the comparison to polio and an iron lung.

    The early ventilator technology used a pressure on breathing in and release all pressure on exhale. This caused distress of the aveoli (air sacs)in the lungs. The treatment with this technology did not give a much better outcome than no treatment due to lung damage inhibiting the healing process.

    The next generation did not go to zero pressure on exhale but maintained some pressure to not damage the aveoli. This was an improvement but the increased blood stream CO2 levels caused the patient to feel as if they couldn't catch their breath. This did give an incremental improvement in mortality rates.

    This lead to the third generation in which the patient is sedated and and the breathing muscles purposely paralyzed. This allows an optimal matching of the lung air pressures at the cost of 100% of breathing function is controlled by the ventilator. All of this must be monitored by a person trained to actually monitor the patients vitals. ICU staffing is on the order of two ventilator patients per care giver.

    The problem with COVID-19 is that in patients with respiratory distress, the walls of the aveoli get thicker from inflammation and fluid collects on the outside of the aveoli. This significantly inhibits the exchange of O2 and CO2 across the membrane. The purpose of the ventilator is to use increased air pressure to improve the exchange rate.

    In polio, the patient in an iron lung has a normal lung gas exchange process. The only function the iron lung addressed was to supplement the paralyzed breathing muscles. Many polio patients did die of pneumonia while using an iron lung.

    The idea of an open source ventilator sounds nice at face value however the ventilator machine itself is only a small portion of the equation for successful therapy. It should also be realized that patients on ventilators with a disease process that severely inhibits lung function have poor survivability rates even when we are not dealing with COVID-19.

    The ventilator is not a magic bullet that fixes the problem. The purpose is to hopefully buy enough time so that the normal healing process can get the patient to a point where they can survive. This is very intensive medical care is far beyond just supplementary oxygen.


    Medically, I think we would be much better off in trying to reduce the immune response in the patients with the severe cases of COVID-19. The main issue appears to be an over active immune response that eventually leads to respiratory distress in some patients. This would greatly decrease the need for ventilator therapy and likely dramatically the mortality rate.

    The problem is that much of the traditional health care approach is to treat symptoms as they appear. Unfortunately, in many situations this approach is just chasing a disease while it runs its course.In some disease situations, a more proactive course has much better outcomes but this approach is often in opposition to general medical treatment protocols.

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