OT - 51 Ford Merc column shifter ?

Neighbor collects old cars, mostly British sports type. Seems to be branching into "mid century" American iron....

He tends to get an idea, and then bring parts by for me to repair or modify. He's good for the dough. Problem is that his ideas are frequently quirky or incorrect. Not sure what car sites he may be getting info from. So it's usually best to do some research before attacking with the methods he is certain will fix things.

The pictures are of parts represented to be the steering column and shifter from a '51 Mercury.

His idea is that it won't shift, because the projections on the shifter tube (lower part in photo) are "worn" "rounded". It does not look that way to me. Other than maybe the left-most upper corner of the left-most projection.

He is adamant that all I should do is weld up all around both projections and mill them square and parallel. These projections are actually somewhat hardened, and pressed in from inside the tube and then spot welded. (induction welded) As far as I can examine, the holes they are pressed through are the same shape as the current configuration.







Anyone able to tell from the pictures if the projections are factory spec for all intents and purposes, or if they indeed are worn too much?

The forks/conrod shaped items have some slight wear on the tops where the keys on the column enter, But it does not look like it would be enough to cause problems. Or is it? Anyone here conversant with these things?

smt

Is the clutch adjusted/working properly??

No oil or gunk on clutch plates?

Everything looks proper, sharp edges will NOT shift smoothly...

Would a 51 Merc tranny have syncronizer gears? Could this be the problem? Synchronizers are worn? Or does this tranny not have sychronizers and needs to be double clutched?

Vlad

Install the shift lever and try it on the bench.Down should engage lower arm, pull up in neutral for top one (low/rev.)
Yep, sharp edges are not the answer.

Thanks so far, especially validation of decent original shape from Abarnsley.

Neighbor's claim is that the shifter won't shift in the column itself, that the 2 pegs somehow get locked between detents due to (his notion) that they are rounded.

Thinking further on this, it might be possible that the tops of the rod shaped parts are just worn enough to "catch" at times, but they aren't really that bad looking.

I do not know if the tranny shifts ok in the box or not, his claim is that it is all in the tree. I don't really want to get sucked into doing his trouble shooting even if he pays. Just did not want to take his idea and ruin a good part, if that is what I am looking at.

smt.

(edited) - Ken and I were writing at the same time. Ken, I think you are right, will have to do some bench testing at least, or he will not let me go. Will have to get a shift lever from him, he did not drop that off.

Those notches don't look worn....But as far as his argument of the problem, He's correct that when they wear the shifter won't engage the levers.
Anyway...I'd be more inclined to reassemble and try it on the bench as was suggested earlier.
FWIW...Most all old column shifters would give trouble because the adjustment rod would slip out of adjustment.

Usually....There is a hole in each of the levers. You stick a drill bit through both levers while the adjustment nuts are loose on those rods which are going to the trans. Make sure the trans is in neutral while that drill bit lines up the levers...and tighten the rod adjusting nuts.

Also...grease that tube well and the levers.

If the inside of the other shifting lever looks as good as the one shown, I think the trouble is in the adjustment of the rods between the levers and the transmission.

Were that mine, I would clean and lube inside the tube, reinstall and adjust the shifting rods, and learn how to hold my mouth when shifting.

Also no full throttle slap shifting.

Years ago I had a 1958 Chevy that if you were not precise in your shifting, would put you into reverse and second at the same time when going from first to second. It did this one time in the middle of an intersection in Los Angeles at rush hour. The cure was to jump out, raise the hood and with a big screwdriver pop the linkage into neutral, jump in and drive off. All this with 6 lanes of traffic each way blowing horns, and drivers yelling and shaking fists.

Paul

Not much in the tree to go wrong.

Rounded better than square.

Look close for burrs and cracks.

Proper use is key too...

Palm up and lift then pull towards you for first.

Palm down and just move towards windshield for second


Palm down and pull towards yiu for third.

Sounds funny but having hand position wrong could cause collar to not drop properly and try both second reverse thing.

Gunk or a blur could cause some drag that could prevent it from falling into lower position.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

Back in the day when looking after my old mans Thames 400Es thames 4e - Google Search

Most gear change problems that weren't the linkage between column and gearbox, were caused by the column not sliding axially as smooth as it should, .....mostly down to crap lack of lube, even rust in between the sliding surfaces of the column assembly

A good strip down thorough cleaning and greasing on reassembly curing the ills.

stephen thomas said:

Neighbor collects old cars, mostly British sports type. Seems to be branching into "mid century" American iron....

He tends to get an idea, and then bring parts by for me to repair or modify. He's good for the dough. Problem is that his ideas are frequently quirky or incorrect. Not sure what car sites he may be getting info from. So it's usually best to do some research before attacking with the methods he is certain will fix things.

The pictures are of parts represented to be the steering column and shifter from a '51 Mercury.

His idea is that it won't shift, because the projections on the shifter tube (lower part in photo) are "worn" "rounded". It does not look that way to me. Other than maybe the left-most upper corner of the left-most projection.

He is adamant that all I should do is weld up all around both projections and mill them square and parallel. These projections are actually somewhat hardened, and pressed in from inside the tube and then spot welded. (induction welded) As far as I can examine, the holes they are pressed through are the same shape as the current configuration.

View attachment 171810

View attachment 171811

View attachment 171812

Anyone able to tell from the pictures if the projections are factory spec for all intents and purposes, or if they indeed are worn too much?

The forks/conrod shaped items have some slight wear on the tops where the keys on the column enter, But it does not look like it would be enough to cause problems. Or is it? Anyone here conversant with these things?

smt

Click to expand...

Those things can have a huge amount of slop and it will still shift. I would just do what he wants as long as he pays. If you start giving advice and it still does not shift then it becomes your problem. As of now it is his problem all the way.

When installed in car if levers line up in neutral is OK, should drop from low to 2-3 arm by itself
2 and 3 are synchro.when idling in neutral engage 2nd befor attempting low or reverse, eliminates RRrpp!
.

Good lord! you are going back to my youth! I cut my eye teeth on these damn things!

The problem is not in the lugs. Sloppy bushing on the levers at the firewall, as well as at the transmission are the source of the problem.

Solution:
Replace the worn out rubber bushings top and bottom.

Lee (the saw guy)

From past experience, I would pull the side plate off the trans. and check the brass/bronze synchronizers, like someone earlier mentioned. Also, some end play in the tailshaft will cause grief, it affects the synchronizers. The parts in the photos are pretty good.

JH

I have experienced shifting problems with a column 3 speed and a floor mounted 4 speed. Both shifters were worn enough that the shifting movement of the drive linkage slipped between the levers in the shifter that the linkage was pinned into. The 4 speed was a OE shifter supplied by Hurst to Oldsmobile. Low bidder stuff inside didn't last. Replaced with a Hurst Synchrolock direct replacement and it lasted to 150,000 miles. The Chevy column shift required a new shift tube (with the driving lever) assembly. The wear allows the drive lever to disengage from the shift levers and jump into neutral leaving the trans in the previous gear. The detents have to be proud enough so they cannot escape contact during the shift process.
Look carefully at the stack to make sure that they self interlock. Add material to ensure this and break the corners slightly. Heavy rounding is not necessary and may contribute to the issue. When the shifter has engaged a lever in gear there should not be much axial excursion available in the shift tube.
Joe

Joe-

What you are saying is about what the owner is reporting.
But the problem in my mind (may be all in my mind ) is that the lugs look machined/ground/"original" - to me they do not look like wear patterns. AFAICT, they also look like they come through punchings in the tube that are the same (rounded) shape.

People on here seem to be telling me that the lugs look "original". What I think I am taking from your post is that perhaps they are a bit worn?

I'm going to bench test this today. Sure is a nuisance, lol!

I've got great neighbors, love most of 'em, we all look our for each other. But some of them "repair" stuff with pipe wrenches and big hammers or work on the wrong end of a problem. The fall back position becomes "well, that didn't work, let's take it to steve, it will be easy for him"

smt

I got a thorough grounding in this in the early '50s when I was drag racing. With the lugs too sharp cornered, it was impossible to slam shift from 1st to 2nd, and it really slowed down shifting. It required _ rather than the preferred _
_1 _/

We would rework the shift gates inside the transmission as well. Anything to shave milliseconds off the shift time.

Slop in the linkage was eliminated. replacing the shift rods (5/16" dia bent steel) with 1/2" diameter steel tubing was another solution. The original rods were not designed to withstand all of the energy being slammed into them.

Ah! those were the days :-)

Thanks for the memories.

Lee (the saw guy)

Ah! Back to those days ! Ford shifters were not too bad about selecting 2 gears at the same time, GM now that is another story !! Those lugs do show some rounding on the corners more than new. But sharp square corners will not work well!! As said lube and bench test looking for slop/play elsewhere also.
John
EDIT A further thought, problems with the shift cover on the trans.
Loose arms on the cover
Worn/bent shift forks
Broken detent springs
And bent linkage

Stephen, I posted without seeing the pics, some sort of IT problem with the graphic display. The design of the column is different enough that my past issues,while similar, can't really be applied to this column. If the levers are close in diameter to the tube the only fault I can imagine would be the length of the bosses on the tube may be short and that they could escape a lever before it is aligned with neutral position.
I am now thinking there may be problems with the interlock ( if it has one) inside the trans. I wish I was closer to see the parts and feel the slop and even play with the trans linkage to see if something didn't feel right.
I have no doubt that you will get the problem figured out with enough pondering. I hope you post the answer just for knowledge enrichment.
Joe

I re-assembled the parts with the shifter tube and levers out of the steering column, and found the tube somewhat oval, enough to bind the levers. The levers also had sharp burrs that caused slight but not-insignificant scratching on the tube. I dressed the burrs, squeezed the tube round, and re-assembled things with grease; and put the shift lever on the other end. Could not feel where there might be a problem. Called owner to come show me. He missed his self proposed appointment but called much later, so I shelved it until Monday.

In discussion with him after the missed connection, it really sounds like the previous owner was clueless and had the linkage adjusted, which he (PO) admitted "made things worse". New owner/neighbor described some things which I attribute to either 1.) poor set up of the linkage between the column shifter and the gear box & 2.) he describes that the "bushings" in the side of the gearbox cover are "sloppy". I told him diplomatically to come get his parts, get a manual, and try setting it up by the book. Then fix the bushings. I pointed out that I was not unwilling to weld on the pieces he left if he could prove they needed it, but that IMO it would do nothing to improve the situation, and would result in ruining the heat treated surfaces of the lugs on the shifter tube, and the hardened keyways and collars of the forks.

The insights and advice here were helpful. In my early years I had a 69 chevy truck with swapped-in 283 & 3 on the tree. Also an early 60's ex-telephone co Dodge panel with same shift method. The Dodge never failed. When the Chevy's did, it got a foolproof Hurst aftermarket on the floor. So I never really investigated the operation of these things.

Thanks much; I'll report when there are any updates.

smt

My 67 ex plumbing panel truck also got a Hurst shifter...Repeat customer so to speak. It was easier than disassembling the column and I had the experience with floor shifters to justify it. After I started work as a tech in a dealership, the column experience followed. Good work on communicating the truth with diplomacy...another skill that I need to improve on.
Joe