OT: Am I going to regret buying a new mill? - Page 2
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    I'm only 37 and I feel your pain. I despise forced updates, needless counter-intuitive design/UI "improvements", and the concepts of hardware/software as a service.

    However, I think all of these things can be mitigated by the user by purchasing competing brands of hardware/software that don't conform to these standards. If that isn't possible for whatever reason then approach the problem like thermite stated, rip that shit out and modify/make it yourself. I think that is part of the reason we became makers, is because we intuitively understand design and fabrication principles and want more control over our systems. At least that is a huge component for myself.

    Anyway, rant over, my advice? Buy an air spindle. No reason to waste money on upgrading the entirety of a machine when all you want is more RPM.

    Here is a resource for ya, probably faster than most of the ots options haas will give ya:

    HTS | NSK America Corporation : Nakanishi Industrial

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    Quote Originally Posted by nihilistic View Post
    I'm only 37 and I feel your pain. I despise forced updates, needless counter-intuitive design/UI "improvements", and the concepts of hardware/software as a service.

    However, I think all of these things can be mitigated by the user by purchasing competing brands of hardware/software that don't conform to these standards. If that isn't possible for whatever reason then approach the problem like thermite stated, rip that shit out and modify/make it yourself. I think that is part of the reason we became makers, is because we intuitively understand design and fabrication principles and want more control over our systems. At least that is a huge component for myself.

    Anyway, rant over, my advice? Buy an air spindle. No reason to waste money on upgrading the entirety of a machine when all you want is more RPM.

    Here is a resource for ya, probably faster than most of the ots options haas will give ya:

    HTS | NSK America Corporation : Nakanishi Industrial
    I was just looking around at a spindle speeder since we are always using small endmills in aluminum and brass. Not sure about that model ^ but they are expensive!

    Sowa Spindle Speeders - 384-214 - Penn Tool Co., Inc

    $7700 for that model, and it *only* goes to 22k rpm. I can't imagine the other one getting up to over 100k rpm.

    edit: the one Iisted is coolant (I think), and with a spindle speeder I don't think you can do auto tool changes or anything so it appears to be more than just putting one on and having a faster rpm machine... but I don't know that for sure, and it probably depends on model?

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    Hi projectnut:
    Yeah, you're making sense, but you have to understand...I don't WANT to be sensible about this...I want to kick off my boots, stamp my pretty little feet and throw a tantrum like a two year old.
    The stupid car was just my latest target for my anger issues.

    However, I am perfectly serious about wanting to avoid the pitfalls of the kind of techno that is complicated, counterintuitive, and vulnerable to all of the shortcomings of the IOT revolution.
    I got so pissed off when my Dropbox account all of a sudden locked me out of my own files, I can't stand the thought of being a single failed internet connection away from a day's lost productivity because Shaw (local internet provider) flaked out, and the thought of Fusion 360 makes me a bit barfy when I think of Autodesk and hostage files and internet extortion.
    When my former business partner first found out that his probe batteries were 40 bucks a pop specials and he was going to lose two days of production waiting for new ones to be flown in, I was just as pissed off as he was, and that wasn't even a high tech issue.

    I'm looking at upgrading one last time so I can die happy with my level of tech, without ever upgrading again.
    You have to realize I'm re-calibrating my business model to serve me in my "golden years", so I'm dumping all my asshole customers, I'm getting picky about what I will take on, I won't work for free anymore, and I'm willing to work less hours than I once was.
    This move (if I do it) is a part of that.

    I want to be reassured I haven't missed the peak of useful tech...to me Windows XP was the peak and Windows 7 was still pretty good, but everything subsequent was a major slide downhill as the "advancements" began to serve Microsoft far more than Microsoft's customers.

    I fear machine tools are going the same way just as cars have done.
    The story of the $3K front headlight replacement and the dead old man with his puppy because the electronic door locks failed in the heat just ring all too true to me:
    Texas man, dog, die inside Corvette when doors and windows won’t open - New York Daily News

    So I needed reassurance that I'm not too late...I don't actually own the Toyota...I just rented it for an evening.
    But if a new mill that I spend a pile of cash on is like that fucking shitbox Toyota, I'll be an unhappy man!

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I was just looking around at a spindle speeder since we are always using small endmills in aluminum and brass. Not sure about that model ^ but they are expensive!

    Sowa Spindle Speeders - 384-214 - Penn Tool Co., Inc

    $7700 for that model, and it *only* goes to 22k rpm. I can't imagine the other one getting up to over 100k rpm.

    edit: the one Iisted is coolant (I think), and with a spindle speeder I don't think you can do auto tool changes or anything so it appears to be more than just putting one on and having a faster rpm machine... but I don't know that for sure, and it probably depends on model?
    Well you have to add a stopping block to keep the speeder in place and the air input needs to be added so I would think that a tool change is possible, just you gotta do a quick disconnect, so an M01 with a (Remove Air) or (Replace Air) note would be the primary caveat. Not too bad imo. I work with surfacing aluminum myself so I have been wanting a better speeder I jsut gotta wait for that right job to justify a $10k tool.

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    I got a VW Golf R (MK 7) a few years back with all the new chit. It was different but all very intuitive, still don't like the fact the forward collision system resets after each start, I've had it activate in traffic a few times and it sux when the car brakes and you don't want it to. Also had it stop me in a parking lot once when there was nothing around.

    Still a little leery about the "steer by wire" system but I haven't heard of any malfunctions so far...

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    As far as budget speeders go check out Toodle. I got a Toodle Blue to use with my 1000PSI TSC a couple months ago and it works pretty well. Takes about $1200 to get into it all said and done. They also have Toodle Green which runs on air, and one model has an input on the side. You don't need an accessory block, just M19 it, but you'd have to plug it in manually unless you have high pressure spindle coolant or tool air blast.

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    Good guess, but that is because he says he rented it for evening.

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    I understand the need for safety valves to function now and then, else how do you know they still work?

    Requarding the upgrades(?) Why if what you have in vehicles, software and machines still function well for what you want? Can't say this for software, but for hardware just have what you are familiar with repaired, rebuilt or whatever and have any new features like the high speed spindle added? Same with the car. Repair what you have or buy one used in good condition and have it thoroughly gone through by your trusted mechanic.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by richard newman View Post
    I feel your pain marcus. Just installed a toilet, its blue tooth, sends a photo of my asshole to Zuckerburg, Bezos, and Gates every time I take a shit.
    Be careful, Rich. The blue tooth may bite you.

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    My rant: I absolutely hate the new key fobs. The spare key to my wife's new Lexus cost $500. I have a 2002 lexus in my yard. I replaced the fuel pump thinking that was the reason it doesn't start but I'm suspecting the culprit is the stupid key chip has malfunctioned. I don't feel like towing it to a dealer to spend god knows how much on it. I might literally trash an otherwise decent car because of the KEY.

    I bought a DT2 last year and overall I really like it. The spindle does not turn on AT ALL with the door open. So you need to get yourself one of those Taster 3d probes to use instead of an edge finder if you don't want the renishaw probe option. Also the next-gen control is networked to your computer so there is no more sending programs via the rs232. The floppy is now a USB stick.
    It was irritating in the beginning but I've gotten used to it and it's actually better. Bottom line, I think you will like the new machine....it's not as irritating as the key fobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi projectnut:
    Yeah, you're making sense, but you have to understand...I don't WANT to be sensible about this...I want to kick off my boots, stamp my pretty little feet and throw a tantrum like a two year old.
    The stupid car was just my latest target for my anger issues.

    However, I am perfectly serious about wanting to avoid the pitfalls of the kind of techno that is complicated, counterintuitive, and vulnerable to all of the shortcomings of the IOT revolution.
    I got so pissed off when my Dropbox account all of a sudden locked me out of my own files, I can't stand the thought of being a single failed internet connection away from a day's lost productivity because Shaw (local internet provider) flaked out, and the thought of Fusion 360 makes me a bit barfy when I think of Autodesk and hostage files and internet extortion.
    When my former business partner first found out that his probe batteries were 40 bucks a pop specials and he was going to lose two days of production waiting for new ones to be flown in, I was just as pissed off as he was, and that wasn't even a high tech issue.

    I'm looking at upgrading one last time so I can die happy with my level of tech, without ever upgrading again.
    You have to realize I'm re-calibrating my business model to serve me in my "golden years", so I'm dumping all my asshole customers, I'm getting picky about what I will take on, I won't work for free anymore, and I'm willing to work less hours than I once was.
    This move (if I do it) is a part of that.

    I want to be reassured I haven't missed the peak of useful tech...to me Windows XP was the peak and Windows 7 was still pretty good, but everything subsequent was a major slide downhill as the "advancements" began to serve Microsoft far more than Microsoft's customers.

    I fear machine tools are going the same way just as cars have done.
    The story of the $3K front headlight replacement and the dead old man with his puppy because the electronic door locks failed in the heat just ring all too true to me:
    Texas man, dog, die inside Corvette when doors and windows won’t open - New York Daily News

    So I needed reassurance that I'm not too late...I don't actually own the Toyota...I just rented it for an evening.
    But if a new mill that I spend a pile of cash on is like that fucking shitbox Toyota, I'll be an unhappy man!

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
    I understand your frustration. Fortunately I was able to take an early retirement (they paid me to leave). I was in my 50's and still loving what I did. It took a couple years to assemble things, but I was able to somewhat recreate the shop I worked in for nearly 20 years. The company was closing many of it's shops and I was literally able to buy some of the machines I used while working there.

    Like an old curmudgeon I shied away from any of the CNC machines, and went for the manual ones. I couldn't be happier. There are no outrageously expensive and now obsolete electronics to worry about. No salesmen bugging me to up grade to the newest generation, and no rules as to when I work, or what jobs I take on.

    I avoid the "cloud" when ever possible preferring to have my own back up. My laptop has 2 terabytes of memory, and my backup drive has another 5 terabytes. With that and the drawers full of paper drawings I feel quite comfortable that I can recreate just about anything I'll need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    I want to be reassured I haven't missed the peak of useful tech...to me Windows XP was the peak and Windows 7 was still pretty good, but everything subsequent was a major slide downhill ...
    In the Windows world I'd go you one better - 2000 was the peak, XP was okay, after that it's all been downhill

    Outside Windows, OS/2 was the best (don't tell me about the SIQ thing again, thanks), and Irix was the most pleasant. All in the past.

    Solaris was goofy but made actual advances, but now hidden behind the Oracle Wall of Greed. Larry Ellison is a piece of work, yes ?

    Otherwise ? All downhill since 2010. 2005 if you want to be picky. So much for keeping up with the joneses, no measurable improvements in ten years.

    If you want a faster spindle I'd look for a Bostomatic. Any excuse to buy one of those would do the trick, they are beautiful. You need one, implmex ! Honest !

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    Marcus I have a Fadal I'll be selling soon, if you want a 'new' machine that does not have a silly UI or any hard to find parts this is it

    But in all seriousness, I think wether or not you're going to like the Next Gen Control on the new HAAS mills is something likely only you can decide. It seems like the local HAAS guys would probably be more than willing to spend some time letting you work through the control yourself to decide wether or not you like it! I've found them generally pretty good in that way, they do have the upside of selling you the machine after all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    In the Windows world I'd go you one better - 2000 was the peak, XP was okay, after that it's all been downhill

    Outside Windows, OS/2 was the best (don't tell me about the SIQ thing again, thanks), and Irix was the most pleasant. All in the past.

    Solaris was goofy but made actual advances, but now hidden behind the Oracle Wall of Greed. Larry Ellison is a piece of work, yes ?

    Otherwise ? All downhill since 2010. 2005 if you want to be picky. So much for keeping up with the joneses, no measurable improvements in ten years.

    If you want a faster spindle I'd look for a Bostomatic. Any excuse to buy one of those would do the trick, they are beautiful. You need one, implmex ! Honest !

    I agree with you on Windows versions! I'm still limping with 7 and have a new Win 10 box sitting here. Wish me luck!

    As for Bostomatic, I'm familiar with them. My Uncle Tom was co-founder/co-owner. Great guy. And quite a skilled woodworker in his spare time. He once made my boys a couple little wooden pistols in Colt patterns, with walnut grips. They had genuine Colt medallions in the grips, as Bostomatic had supplied machines to Colt. I still chat with his wife about every month or so. My favorite Aunt.

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    I understand the frustration. When Win 10 replaced my beloved 7, I really struggled. Our automobiles required a lot of getting accustomed to all the fancy stuff. Now my wife has a new Apple 12 phone. I stuck with the steep learning curve on all these things and have reasonably worked out the details. It does help that my 55 year old youngest son grew up with computers, starting with the Radio Shack TRS-80 and going on to get a master’s degree in Computer Engineering. When I get stumped, I call him and yell HELP! I plan to celebrate my 90th birthday early in February. Just put some effort into learning, and you will be much happier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
    Just put some effort into learning, and you will be much happier.
    I think there is a misunderstanding by some people that this is a case of "can't learn, afraid of change."

    Speaking for myself, it's not "can't learn". I learned how to run a compiler and fix stupid gcc-isms in bad code to get programs I wanted. I don't enjoy C but had to learn enough to solve dipshit-developer mistakes.

    It's not even "don't want to learn" because I am basically lazy but still enjoy new stuff.

    It's that I refuse to do things the absolutely stupid way that many so-called "developers" think is oh-so-kewl. So many things in modern computing are stinking garbage, problems that were solved rationally decades ago thrown in the trash for nonfunctional braindead crap.

    It's not that we can't learn. It's that we don't want to throw away functioning, rational systems for absolute shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi All:
    Warning, I have a pissy rant to get off my chest first but then I have machining related question.
    So, tonight I drove a 2019 model Toyota Corolla with every fucking techno feature ever made to piss off old farts like me.
    You start it by pushing the "START" button ...twice.
    You stop it by pushing the "START" button...once.
    Push it three times by accident and it makes an ugly noise.
    So, no more key like a normal car...this newfangled shit is "BETTER".

    You disengage the parking brake by putting it in "PARK" and stepping on the brake pedal until the little red light goes off.
    You turn on the parking brake the same way, but it takes a while so you have to sit there with the engine running and your foot on the brake until the little red light comes on
    So no more parking brake lever...this newfangled shit is "BETTER".
    Took me 5 minutes and a look at the car manual to figure that one out.

    The environmental controls reset themselves to the "Useless" position every time you turn the car off, so when you start the whole fucking works fogs up and you need to dig out your glasses and find the right buttons to get it working again.

    The car drives OK but the techno shit...well you can guess from my tone what I think of it!
    If it's any consolation (and I know full well that it isn't), I'm half your age and this is some of the dumbassest shit I've ever heard in my life.

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    Well, as a guy who used to work for a major MTB I can tell you that some change isn't because we want it. We had door interlocks that were wired thru the machine's ladder and were difficult to bypass - not because the MTB wanted it, but because the Feds told we had to. Can they be worked around? Yeah, and not that hard, but still.

    I remember my dad getting hacked off that he couldn't use paper tape anymore. We had a library that filled a ROOM with paper tapes, but I had to put them all on a hard drive before the tape reader/punch crapped out.

    My take on this, adapt. Make the best of it. Make it work for you. Find the easiest route to do it. As for the Toyota, well, they LOVE gadgets, so they make a lot of it, and many cars are deliberately dumb-ed down after the Audi "unintentional acceleration" scare which just turned out to be a lot of dopey folk pressing the wrong pedal.

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    Keyless start....auto wipers.....auto headlights...lane assist... etc are all solutions for problems that dont exist.
    Keyless start is probably the most useless (at least the iteration of it that i am familiar with). In the old plow truck you put the key in the ignition...give it a turn and go. With keyless.....you still need the thingy in your pocket....the only thing you dont have to do is take it out of your pocket. Didnt save much there.
    I took Mrs. Toolsteel V2.0's vehicle in for service last winter. They gave me a loaner with 250 miles on it. The roads were icy that day and snow covered. The lane assist crap nearly put me in the ditch because i was staying in the tire tracks rather than in the lane (pretty common when the roads are covered). That thing bitched at me more than Mrs. Toolsteel V1.0 ever did. Being a loaner i didnt know how to navigate through the 10 or so screens to get to the spot to disable it. If/when I buy a new car part of the deal will be....I aint signing shit until you teach me to turn that crap off.
    I will say blind spot mirrors are an outstanding improvement

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    Just a note about vehicles.

    I bought a new Ranger last year, and I think it has a good mix of old and new. Mine does NOT have the big button to start and stop it, it has a key, that also opens the doors, which do NOT open remotely. (No idea about the headlights, but they look OK). Basically I like it, and it does not piss me off.

    Just in case you think I LIKE the nutty new stuff, my other vehicle was made in 1989, and I think it is a little too new!

    I think some new stuff is useful and good. But all to much of it is done not because it is better, but basically "because we can".

    I'd never have a car that the engine start and stop system was modeled after a laptop computer... What the hell is that all about? That does not seem to have any real advantage or purpose that is not served better by a different solution.

    But, again, I'd be fine with a car that has a steel dashboard (I'd prefer burled walnut) and about 3 or 4 gauges, as long as it would start reliably at -25F. And had a 5 speed manual tranny, like the 1989 does.


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