OT: Anyone have "Goodman" brand HVAC? Are they any good?

A local contractor has given me a very attractive bid (as far as price) to install a new HVAC unit for my home.
He spec'd out a Goodman brand 4 ton/15 seer unit. Now, I'm familiar with the big name brands such as Lennox, Rheem,
Trane, Carrier and Ruud... but this is the first time I've heard of Goodman.

Are they any good? or would I just be shelling out good money in exchange for a bunch of hidden problems that will come back to bite me?

Thanks for any input,

Mike

I thought the same thing when they installed mine, but when the tech came out to charge it, he explained is was simply a "branded" unit and that many of the components are identical to the mainstream brands, much like whirlpool / kitchenaid are the same inside, just have a diffrent skin.

Mines been in service for 4 seasons now (4 ton, same as yours) not a lick of trouble.

Goodman HVAC equipment has been manufactured for about thirty years. They're headquartered in Houston, TX, and their products are produced at plants in Texas and Tennessee. They focus on the residential and light commercial market and are a major player here in the South, though I'm not familiar with their activities in other parts of the country. Go to their website for more on the company's history.

For many years I owned a residential and light commercial property inspection service. We had the opportunity to inspect over 10,000 structures, probably 95% of which were air conditioned, and during that time I saw Goodman grow from a small "builder's grade" product, to a significant and very competitive player in our market area.

An end-user's satisfaction with a central heating & cooling system relies to a great extent on the skill of the contractor in designing and performing the installation, and even the finest product can be given a bad reputation by a shoddy vendor. However, I was impressed enough with our field observations of Goodman equipment, as well as the product support and warranty experiences of trusted professionals in the HVAC industry, to specify one of their replacement systems for my elderly mother's home in Georgia about six years ago. I've also had one at my own home for three years. So far, so good.

Please be advised that I've been retired for five years thus can offer no advice on the up-to-the-minute status of Goodman - "your mileage may vary". But neighbors on both sides of me have had Goodman equipment installed in the past year, so they must still be an attractive alternative in these parts.

~TW~

Evaporator coil in my goodman unit went out after 4 seasons of use but because the original HVAC contractor couldn't be located (house builder went under in the '08 crash) there was no way to verify when it was actually put into service so the warranty was based upon the manufacture date. It was 5 years and 1 month from manufacture and Goodman flat out refused to replace the coil under warranty even though it was definitely not put into service the day it was manufactured by them. I ended up having to eat that cost ($1200).

My neighbor's house was built the same time as mine (within a couple months). His compressor went out about the same time... same story, Goodman wouldn't replace it because the date it entered service couldn't be verified.

Those may be a "fluke" type of thing, but they are my experience with Goodman so I'll post them up here.

I just installed 2 new Goodman units at my house. No problems with them. I will have to take Goodmans side in this. If the unit is not registered with them for the date put in service, the only thing they have to go by is the manufacture date. That is not there fault, but the fault of a contractor that did not do his job. When mine were installed, I went on line and registered my units for the date they were installed. All I needed was the serial numbers from each piece and about 10 minutes time.
JohnL

CountryBoy19 said:

Evaporator coil in my goodman unit went out after 4 seasons of use but because the original HVAC contractor couldn't be located (house builder went under in the '08 crash) there was no way to verify when it was actually put into service so the warranty was based upon the manufacture date. It was 5 years and 1 month from manufacture and Goodman flat out refused to replace the coil under warranty even though it was definitely not put into service the day it was manufactured by them. I ended up having to eat that cost ($1200).

My neighbor's house was built the same time as mine (within a couple months). His compressor went out about the same time... same story, Goodman wouldn't replace it because the date it entered service couldn't be verified.

Those may be a "fluke" type of thing, but they are my experience with Goodman so I'll post them up here.

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I have a Goodman propane furnace in my shop, 9 years, no problems at all. My shop AC is made by Trane. The HVAC in my house is made by Lennox and it is a real P.O.S.

johnl said:

I just installed 2 new Goodman units at my house. No problems with them. I will have to take Goodmans side in this. If the unit is not registered with them for the date put in service, the only thing they have to go by is the manufacture date. That is not there fault, but the fault of a contractor that did not do his job. When mine were installed, I went on line and registered my units for the date they were installed. All I needed was the serial numbers from each piece and about 10 minutes time.
JohnL

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I'm not "siding" with anybody here, just telling what happened.

I certainly understand that they don't have a responsibility to extend warranty coverage ... I put the full blame of it not being registered on the contractor, but 2 Goodman units that had failures just outside of the warranty period seems a bit suspicious if you ask me. Not trying to trash them or anything more than just outlining what happened. That being said, however, it would have spoken highly of Goodman if they had said, "Technically your unit is out of warranty because it wasn't registered, but we realize that the machine very likely wasn't put in service within 1 month of manufacture and it's unusual for failures like that to happen so we'll go ahead and take care of the replacement for you."

Just my experience... I'm sure every manufacturer has customers that have had this exact same experience... so take it for what it's worth...

I appreciate all the replies so far. Curious what can make a coil go bad. Isn't it just a coil?
Please keep the "Goodman" stories coming...

Had a 3 ton Goodman for about 15 years. Only issue with the syatem was a leak in the connection to the "A" coil. Changed out on a complete HVAC update. I'd do Goodman again.

mm58 said:

I appreciate all the replies so far. Curious what can make a coil go bad. Isn't it just a coil?
Please keep the "Goodman" stories coming...

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every time the copper line inside the coil "loops" back on itself there are 2 soldered connections on the U-connector. This means there are a LOT of soldered connections in a coil, and therefore lots of opportunities for 1 bad connection to ruin the whole unit... this is most commonly where they leak, and they aren't normally repairable because the solder joints are so close together so in the process of trying to repair 1 joint you will most likely create a new leak at the joint right beside it...

I've got a goodman furnace/airconditioner (3 ton) at my shop that was installed about 2006-2007. I ran the crap out of it trying to keep the shop cool in the summer. Our shop is a condo shop and we expanded to the building next door in 08. For a couple years that a/c unit was running all day trying to keep both condo units cool. So far the only problem was the blower motor in the furnace went bad about a year ago. The hvac guy that installed it took care of me on that one. About a year ago I had another goodman furnace/ac installed in the condo unit next door. This time a 4 ton A/C. It's been running good so far.

Ain't inflation a bitch? 1200 to replace an evap. coil. I used to install entire systems for that amount.

Ran across something while I looked up SEER (today's SEER), since you are looking to replace with a 15. They go up to and past 18 SEER, I would go for the highest I could afford. 10 used to be "state of the art", now they are cheapo's. I tried to talk my kids into insisting on a higher efficiency from the cheapo builder of their new house. Cost was prohibitive. Max 10 Lennox, and I consider them junk.

Here is what I ran across:

"We found more criticism and complaints about Goodman (makers of the Goodman, Janitrol and Amana brands) than any other brand. In spite of that, most contractors maintain that the problem is not with Goodman products, which are sometimes less expensive, but with faulty installation. These pros say that other manufacturers, such as Trane and Bryant, establish stringent requirements for technicians who install their equipment, while Goodman will let anyone install one of their air conditioners. When these pros repair Goodman units, they often find that the problem is not defective or short-lived parts. If you buy a Goodman air conditioner from a skilled contractor, they say it will be as reliable as any other brand."

I can't complain too much about that, maybe it is true, that you have to be TRAINED to install THEIR product. However, if you are trained to install ONE brand, another should be exactly the same. It ain't exactly brain surgery. My kids had a Co. sell them a contract to maintain their system. 300 buck bills after a "tune up". Called, told contacts were burning up, needed replaced. Also plugged a connector in, kid saw it, "What did you do?" "Er, ah, someone forgot to make this connection, you ran all Winter on "Emergency heat", resistance heat for about 5 months."

I arranged for an entire oil hot air system and AC unit to be replaced with an electric furnace and 15 SEER heat pump. System complete, 2800. 4 years ago, might be a little higher, now. Ain't no such thing as 15 thou heating system install in a typical home. McMansion, OK, but not in a typical ranch or 2 story, 2 thou SF house.

I think you guys have lived too long under the pricing of today, where you pay 10 bucks per carbide insert, and 4 bucks a pound ground beef, AND 4 buck gas, when oil approached 100 bucks a barrel, and the last time it was 4 bucks was under BushII, when oil was 140 a barrel. That, alone, should tell you it is speculators bidding up the price of gasoline.

I have never adjusted to today's prices. I don't buy a hell of a lot that used to cost a quarter, except for smokes, which are pushing 5 bucks a pack, and I still buy them, and I still bitch and begrudge, but still pay. Probably be ahead of the game to take Chantrix, worked for a couple people I know, and it is free, to me. Just don't know if it would take. I have no desire to quit, if it comes down to it.

Wandering. Good luck with whatever you decide.

George

So what is it exactly about the installation that can make or break a HVAC's lifespan? What aspect of it gets done improperly that leads to problems?
Surely we're not talking about just the mounting and hookup of the hardware are we (??)

mm58 said:

So what is it exactly about the installation that can make or break a HVAC's lifespan? What aspect of it gets done improperly that leads to problems?
Surely we're not talking about just the mounting and hookup of the hardware are we (??)

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The two main things would be failure to properly evacuate the tubing and evaporator coil prior to opening the valves on the condensing unit, and improper routing of the refrigerant tubing (usually when using a coiled tubing package rather than piping with hard copper) and causing a series of traps in the suction line that prevent the oil from returning to the compressor as it should.

Compressor failures on most any brand of equipment are highly related to the installer rather than to the equipment brand. We were a dealer for Carrier, Trane, and Goodman when we were in the contracting business, and I saw no difference in the failure rates from one brand to another. Our compressor failure rate for equipment we installed was less than 1% within the 5 yr warranty period in effect during most of that time. I put a Carrier heat pump in my own house in 86. Replaced the outdoor unit with a Goodman around 98, and replaced that one with another Goodman about a year ago.

OTOH, I was in the Carrier distributor's local parts outlet one day when a couple guys from a local jackleg who also sold Carrier stuff came carrying in two dead compressors at the same time. I mentioned to the manager that it must've been a bad week for that bunch, and he told me it was typical for them to average more than one warranty compressor failure per week. Their specialty was the slam 'em in and haul ass type installations typical of apartment complexes and low end tract house projects. So much for the theory that Trane or Carrier require training for installers. My dad was a Carrier dealer from 1957 until we got out of the contracting business in 1999, and I can tell you first hand there was never one minute of required corporate training on anything during that 42 years. They're all strictly in the business of selling stuff, and if a totally incompetent bozo can pump out the sales they'll eat the warranty stuff and roll it all back into the next year's price increases.

IMO, the most important part of who to buy from is the reputation of the installer rather than the equipment itself.

If you go with Goodman, check to see if they still have the deal where you can pay $25 or so directly to Goodman and get the warranty extended to cover the entire unit for the full warranty period. Standard would be one yr on things like capacitors, contactors, fan motors, etc and the longer warranty (10 yrs I think) on the refrigeration cycle which would be the compressor, condenser, and evaporator coils. IIRC, the extended warranty also provides a labor allowance as well as the additional parts warranty. IMO it would be a good deal even if it cost $100 now.

Munchr,

You must know more about this than I, with 47 years in the business. I DO think most units, household anyway, use pre-charged tubing, inside to outside units.

A bad joint in an evap can be fixed without melting loose all the other joints, unless you are using a rosebud to solder 3/8 copper.

mm58 said:

So what is it exactly about the installation that can make or break a HVAC's lifespan? What aspect of it gets done improperly that leads to problems?
Surely we're not talking about just the mounting and hookup of the hardware are we (??)

Click to expand...

Besides generally poor mechanical "hook-up" technique, many "installation" issues can effect equipment life, including, mismatched line sets, improper refrigerant charge, inadequate wiring, mismatched condensing unit & air handlers, improper duct sizing, inadequate return air provisions, leaks in duct systems (particularly in "hidden" areas such as return air chases and plenums in walls and between floors), inadequate footings under condensing units, condensing units not level, air flow around condensing units obstructed by vegetation or structure, and damage to condenser coils by pets and insects (aluminum coils in outside units are particularly susceptible to corrosion damage due to dog urine and ant infestations).

Moral: the skill and knowledge of the HVAC installer is critical in achieving optimum efficiency and service life. Routine seasonal maintenance is also important. I'd estimate that 70% of the HVAC equipment we used to look at never had received any preventative maintenance.

~TW~

gmatov said:

Munchr,

You must know more about this than I, with 47 years in the business. I DO think most units, household anyway, use pre-charged tubing, inside to outside units.

A bad joint in an evap can be fixed without melting loose all the other joints, unless you are using a rosebud to solder 3/8 copper.

Click to expand...

George, most residential systems are installed with coiled tubing kits. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. The problem comes from jackleg installers who buy tubing kits in bulk and use a 50 footer on everything, even jobs where 25 ft would do the job. Instead of cutting the tubing to the right length, they leave all the excess length coiled up in the attic or crawlspace. If its most handy to leave that coil of excess tubing standing vertically, that's how they'll leave it. Over time, the compressor oil collects in that series of coils and the compressor eventually starves for oil.

I agree there's no reason why a leak on a return bend can't be soldered if the repairman knows what he's doing. The tubing used to manufacture the coil itself is very thin, both to promote better heat transfer and to minimize cost of production, so you have to keep the heat on the fitting rather than letting the flame get onto the tubing which can melt pretty quickly. But that ain't rocket science for anyone who's actually qualified to be working on the stuff in the first place. For that matter, if the guy can't solder, there's epoxy available specifically for the purpose of patching leaks in condenser coils, so there's not much reason for anyone to stick a customer with a $1200 bill when the problem is nothing but a leak.

thermite said:

Goodman is basic 'white bread'. Mass-produced, usually with Copeland scroll compressor, and to a budget. But they are done well-enough, and value-for money.

Meanwhile many of the former 'Cadillac' brands have changed-hands and innards and organizations to the point where even folks many years in the trade have become unhappy with their former standbys. Many figure the Goodman is at least affordable to maintain, cheaper to replace if/as/when, neither more nor less predictable as to 'when' than units at a multiple of its price, and more readily available in-stock.

You want 'the best' Goodman is not it. But it is more like a South Bend than at Atlas, so 'good enough' for the typical residence.

Bill

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Bill, that's an excellent analysis of the residential HVAC equipment market today, and also the reason why Goodman's market share continues to grow.

Munchr,

I buy your reply. All I ever installed was Milwaukee Product, though one guy, German heritage, from a 100years ago, maybe, insisted on Williamson. I did the install, he did not get a low priced install. I do see him, on occasion, and he never tells me he got a bad heating system, and that is over 25 years ago.

I never used standard length coils for lines. If it called for 38 feet, I could route 40 to keep it level, or a downslope. I have also installed one pipe steam systems, I do understand down slope to the boiler, and eccentric couplings, etc., etc., etc. Too long out of it to know what is good, yoday. Too much consolidation to know if ANYTHING is good, or are they ALL cheap product, just good enough to be as good as the next inferior product.

George

Good Customer Services

After I completed an earlier review, a "Goodman" supervisor contacted me by phone. We spoke, and after explaining the issue and my thoughts, the supervisor said she would get back me on extending the warranty on my new unit. A couple of hours later I received an email from the supervisor, with an attached copy of the corrected and updated warranty coverage. Fantastic customer response after what I believe was a fair complaint issue.