OT - Art world / bronze sculptures - are they legitimate?

GregSY · Nov 1, 2017

Below is an ebay link to a Henry Moore bronze sculpture. A 'real' Henry Moore bronze would sell for thousands if not millions.

So what is the deal with these? There are several sellers on ebay selling them, so it's obvious they are being mass produced (probably in China). But....they are still rather pricey and claim to be 'signed' and/or 'numbered'.

I consider the art world to be as full of charlatans and frauds on the same level as politicians, offshore boat dealers, and Al Babin. But do these bronzes have any claim to legitimacy?

Signed Henry Moore Abstract Heavy Figurine Female Modern Sculpture HotCast Deal | eBay

SAG 180 · Nov 1, 2017

Doesn't actually state that it was Henry Moore that signed the casting, could be signed by the Chinese foundry worker for all we know. You'd be better off casting your own sculptures as you'd know they are rare and limited production.

L Vanice · Nov 1, 2017

You can also buy bronze statues inscribed Frederick Remington. I saw one in a local Longhorn restaurant. The one in the White House is probably an original.

The late Mr. Moore did bronze things in the 2-ton weight range, which has tempted thieves to steal them and sell them for scrap. Before doing a huge monumental version, a sculptor would do a miniature in clay to work out the design. The model is called a maquette, and the eBay copies seem to be casts of maquettes. Their small size makes it take a small amount of bronze to cast and they are a favorite household decorative object, without the need to spend hundreds of thousands.

Moore forgeries flood market: Britain's finest modern sculptor is being faked as never before, but the law prevents works being taken out of circulation | The Independent

By the way, "hot cast" means melted metal was poured into a mold. "Cold cast" means a mix of powdered metal and epoxy was poured into a mold. It is a technique that the artist can execute in his studio without the expense of using a commercial art foundry. I have a cold cast bronze of Beethoven that was handed to me by the artist, a sculptor who is world famous in Fort Wayne, IN. (That line is borrowed from a 1942 Jack Benny/Carole Lombard movie called To Be Or Not to Be. Benny played a Polish actor who was said to be "world famous in Poland." It is a riot, and Mel Brooks/Anne Bancroft did a remake in 1983. To Be or Not to Be (1942) - IMDb

Larry

carbonbl · Nov 1, 2017

I kinda think you know the answer to your question (if it seems to good to be true)...but if you actually wanted to inquire as to the authenticity of this piece, you could contact the Henry Moore Foundation- they offer a service to validate pieces. Authentication - Collections - Henry Moore Foundation

Many artist estates with sufficiently high profiles will have staff dedicated to cataloguing and authenticating works. Usually this involves producing a catalogue raisonné and working with galleries/museums/collectors to establish provenance of particular pieces.

As to the more general question of what is an authentic artwork- there aren't any hard and fast rules other than those determined by whatever authority the market deems legitimate. There are objects that have been retroactively declared artworks by estates or galleries that were not intended as such by the original artist. Likewise, there are also cases of artists disavowing works after they created and sold them. Not to mention the multitude of artists who produce objects that cannot be editioned or "uniquely identified" in any conventional way. Ultimately every claim to legitimacy of an artwork is a story told by a particular storyteller, and the art world finds certain stories more compelling (or profitable) and that's what sticks. At the level of museums, collectors, and blue chip galleries, I don't think many would find the "story" behind those ebay bronzes to be very convincing

If you really want to take a deep dive into these issues, Rosalind Krauss's essay "The Originality of the Avant Garde" is a good starting point: http://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/kraussoriginality.pdf

72bwhite · Nov 1, 2017

all it takes is some one to carve a reproduction out of wax once to make a master mold from
and that's what you have there is an unauthorized reproduction.
now if they claim it's an original well then you have a con.
but if one was to buy one for an investment,
well they probably also attended Trump university

tdmidget · Nov 1, 2017

Search Henry Moore" and fake

SVE Performance · Nov 1, 2017

The Ebay ad says that it is made in the Henry Moore style It doesn't claim to be a Henry Moore original or copy.

Bobw · Nov 1, 2017

That's uglier than Rosie O'donell's left ass cheek covered in chocolate.

rons · Nov 1, 2017

Bobw said:
That's uglier than Rosie O'donell's left ass cheek covered in chocolate.

Don't know fine art when you see it.

Bobw · Nov 1, 2017

rons said:
Don't know fine art when you see it.

I can appreciate all kinds of things... And I can understand that things
I like others don't, and things others like, I don't.. Like peaches, they are
fricken nasty and they stink...

But that thing is just flat out F'n Ugly.

If that little thing is worth $200, how much can I get for this one of a kind???

GregSY · Nov 1, 2017

Thanks guys. I guess I get tired of all the 'sellers' out there trying to puff up their stuff.

I wish I had someone to teach me how to cast bronze. But then the second half of the equation would still be lacking - the artistic talent to know what to cast.

tdmidget · Nov 1, 2017

GregSY said:
Thanks guys. I guess I get tired of all the 'sellers' out there trying to puff up their stuff.

I wish I had someone to teach me how to cast bronze. But then the second half of the equation would still be lacking - the artistic talent to know what to cast.

Is there a "conscience" chapter in that course?

Newman109 · Nov 2, 2017

I had several art classes at UCLA when I was getting my degree. Moore was one of the greats discussed. His style is unique and unmistakable. There are several real original Moore sculptures outside in various settings that I recall from my time there.

The sculpture in that eBay listing is clearly a fake and not even a good one. It bears none of the characteristics of a real Moore which, generally feature very smooth lines and are usually rather large.

$212.50 for a real Moore? LOL

Moore sculptures at UCLA - Google Search

Moore sculptures - Google Search

GregSY · Nov 2, 2017

How about this one? Real or fake?
Henry Moore sculpture, signed | eBay

Peter from Holland · Nov 2, 2017

Real -fake If its on your mantlepiece and you like the looks of it Then its real
Said it before Much of the art in arts is getting it sold Not creating it

Peter

Marty Feldman · Nov 2, 2017

On top of everything else, I believe it is wise to look critically at the actual material used. "100% bronze" in an ad, without further detail, may signify nothing more than what the seller wants you to believe. In the realm of fine wood craftsmanship, there are reported cases in which terms like "rock maple" or "black walnut" or "rosewood" have been used to help justifying pricing typical for items in those woods, when in fact (using, for example, microscopic examination of the cellular structure of a sample of the wood) the wood used is a significantly cheaper lookalike.

-Marty-

PeteM · Nov 2, 2017

The first eBay ad is to an actual Moore sculpture as a tiny Chinese-made Tonka truck would be to a real truck. Bad imitation, wrong scale, and as Bob said, probably ugly to most critics' eyes. There IS a Moore that looks a bit like this, given the fake Tonka caveat.

Second one is close, maybe even real, but lacking provenance and (my guess) likely a fake. Don't particularly like that one, but it wouldn't be an embarrassment to own (unless the price keeps rising or its actually a real Moore)

Locally, we have a few talented sculptors working in wax and casting in bronze ("world wide famous in Santa Cruz" -- good line) whose small to medium sized works are in the $1500-$15,000 range. Even for $200, I'd be inclined to support a local artist/craftsman.

This one was a bit more, commissioned for a local restaurant on the wharf and designed and cast by the fellow who owns our local foundry and teaches cast sculpture at the local community college. It's an octopus built above a fire sprinkler shutoff and containing two water fountains within grasp of a tentacle. Not Moore, but an example of contemporary work. Kids love it:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ed/d0/85/edd085b669eac702072589fbfed1425a.jpg

9100 · Nov 2, 2017

There was a fellow in St. Louis who made replica Bronco Busters and sold them as replicas. An original was stolen from the St. Louis Art Museum and one of his employees told me that the police came to him for information about it. He commented that the replicas had finer detail than the originals. The St. Louis Police put unspecified "heavy pressure" on the underworld community and the statue reappeared.

Copies are for sale on the net now.

Bill

DDoug · Nov 2, 2017

Bobw said:
That's uglier than Rosie O'donell's left ass cheek covered in chocolate.

I thought that's what it is supposed to be....

rons · Nov 2, 2017

Bobw said:
I can appreciate all kinds of things... And I can understand that things
I like others don't, and things others like, I don't.. Like peaches, they are
fricken nasty and they stink...

But that thing is just flat out F'n Ugly.

If that little thing is worth $200, how much can I get for this one of a kind???

I think your's is more useful. I could use it to hang my spray painted parts while they dry.

OT - Art world / bronze sculptures - are they legitimate?

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