OT- Can an auto toque converter be used on a winch

I have a friend who is trying to rig up a winch for marine purposes that can be "feathered". The input shaft is powered by a PTO that runs at a fairly constant speed. Is there any possibility of using an automatic transmission torque converter to transfer the power to the winch drum and use a band brake to feather the winch. I would assume oil would have to be circulated through the torque converter to keep heat from building up. Anybody ever tried anything this crazy? Thanks.

The constant RPM input is probably going to rule out a torque converter. You could possibly make it variable speed using adjustable pulleys like a Bridgeport.

The standard method to accomplish what you want is to use the PTO to power a hydraulic pump. Then run the winch with a hydraulic motor. In between you install some kind of flow control. The motor should have constant torque, power will depend on RPM.

The same thing could be done with electricity.

Same as what Ewsly said. Take a look at hydrostatic drives on surplus center. They are stupid cheap.

Find a scrapped Manitowoc crane with Vicon and there you go. I think those variable convertors were made by TwinDisc. If it’s actually going on board a boat, they are substantially heavier than any auto convertor.

ewlsey said:

The standard method to accomplish what you want is to use the PTO to power a hydraulic pump. Then run the winch with a hydraulic motor. In between you install some kind of flow control. The motor should have constant torque, power will depend on RPM.

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This is how it's done in the wrecker world.

I spent a few hours the wrecker's hydraulic winches last night winching a Freightliner truck out of stretch of bad road he had no business being on. Damn Google maps + people's blind faith in them + no common sense = $$$$$$$$

If you wanted to use a torque converter, look at a Bruno drive. Products – Bruno's Automotive
It would not work well with a single speed pto.

The "standard method" used to be called a steam, Diesel, or electrically driven "capstan" when vertical or a "windlass" when horizontal..

An expert mariner - or a percussion core-driller - varied the tension on the rope wrapped around it to control the speed of the haul. Or to release and pick it up again, drill-hammer style.

"Down Easters" ..the last of the commercially viable sailing hulls, used these to manage their sail inventory from deck-level so as to operate with smaller crews and not need so much expertise working aloft.

Neither expensive nor complex... Chinese had used them for a few thousand years arredy before gweilo added other-than "muscle" power.

CAVEAT: may look the same or SIMPLER, but these are meant to be better-managed than a "Bush winch", and do need a great deal more skill, practice, and situational awareness than button-pushing.

^
I’ve heard it called another name vertical or not.
OP couldn’t do that with his winch though so he wants speed control.
Cranes are the one use of variable converter drum drive that come to mind, possibly some high end logging equipment of the 80’s.
Hydraulic drive and control is more common approach I imagine.

Most auto torque converters have a rather high stall speed. They aren't going to transmit much of anything below probably 1700-2000rpm. You might could gear the PTO up to that kind of speed, but I agree with a hydraulic winch option if at all possible.

jmead said:

Cranes are the one use of variable converter drum drive that come to mind, possibly some high end logging equipment of the 80’s.
Hydraulic drive and control is more common approach I imagine.

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Weren't there marine torque converters, similar to what he is asking about ? Bolted to the ends of auxiliary engines like 3-53's and such ? Probably bigger than what he wants but the principle is the same ? Pretty sure I have seen something like that.

Along those lines, I have wondered why tugboats don't use torque converters or a two-speed gearbox at least.

EmanuelGoldstein said:

Weren't there marine torque converters, similar to what he is asking about ? Bolted to the ends of auxiliary engines like 3-53's and such ? Probably bigger than what he wants but the principle is the same ? Pretty sure I have seen something like that.

Along those lines, I have wondered why tugboats don't use torque converters or a two-speed gearbox at least.

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Never seen such with variable control.
As far as tugs go the propellor itself converts the torque.
Are you the same Emmanuel Goldstein that comments on Anchorage Daily News?

EmanuelGoldstein said:

Along those lines, I have wondered why tugboats don't use torque converters or a two-speed gearbox at least.

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Some have done. River push/tow rigs that have to split barges for lock-passage, then regroup, too. More for smoothly handling the need of constant reversing with lower wear than for conversion - see props.

Want to see an elegant solution, observe Hong Kong's "Star" ferry. Props and pilot positions at both ends so they need not be turned around. Helmsman and his line-handlers just stroll to the opposite end each docking, stern becomes the new bow!

jmead said:

Never seen such with variable control.

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I was thinking of it as a fluid coupling, which sounded like what he was really looking for. He said he wanted to put a brake on the input from the pto, so I'm guessing it's more of a desire to slow it down than speed it up.

But guesses are worth what they cost

As far as tugs go the propellor itself converts the torque.

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Thinking, tugs have two very different modes - 2 mph pushing a mountain, and 15 mph with a 75 hp load. For pushing they want a low gear with 8,000 hp but for going to the meetup, 75 hp is plenty and they want to go fast. So a two-speed box seems like a natural. I guess the voith-schneider drives can change the angle of attack ? but regular props cannot. At least, not on older stuff.

Are you the same Emmanuel Goldstein that comments on Anchorage Daily News?

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Nah, they don't like me. They didn't like Ernest Gruening either, so I don't take offense.

thermite said:

Want to see an elegant solution, observe Hong Kong's "Star" ferry. Props and pilot positions at both ends so they need not be turned around. Helmsman and his line-handlers just stroll to the opposite end each docking, stern becomes the new bow!

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All the ferries on the bay were double-enders by 1868 ...

View attachment 236050

but they only tried them new-fangled perpeller thingies oncet. Crashed the boat it did. So they went back to what worked, walking beams and paddle wheels

One of the fun little things about riding the Richmond ferry was watching the deckhand go forward and drop the pin that locked the new front end rudder amidships. Kinda like watching the flaps go down and knowing this means you're going to land soon.

Eureka was still running in 1956 when the 9" crankpin broke, too. I'da made a new crankpin and kept on runnin 'er, she was good for another hunnerd years at least ! In fact, that antique was about twenty minutes faster per trip than the gas turbines the bridge district bought. We'da been better off with 1860 technology.

The bridge district was the biggest collection of stupid shits gathered together on the west coast until SF fell to fawning yuppiedom. I think the SF City Council holds that title now.

I have no real idea as to the application but sailboat/ recreational marine windlass technology use a cone clutch to feather the anchor drop. Usually between two phenolic cones.

This is also a very low rpm situation but feathers nicely with a bit of skill.

Thanks very much for all the replies. From your input I am thinking hydraulic is the way to go. That also solves another problem since space is limited where the winch is on deck. I could run the hoses pretty much anywhere I want. I have dealt with a few hydraulic gear pump/motors in my time and for their size they are very efficient. I think a Prince spool valve would be all I would need to feather the winch. I just didn't even think to use hydraulics. Thanks again.

"As far as tugs go the propellor itself converts the torque."

Yup, and very smoothly. Seems to me the ideal arrangement there would be a variable pitch/reversible pitch propeller.

Cmachine84 said:

I have no real idea as to the application but sailboat/ recreational marine windlass technology use a cone clutch to feather the anchor drop. Usually between two phenolic cones.

This is also a very low rpm situation but feathers nicely with a bit of skill.

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Cone clutch has been the "go to" for Donkey's Years. Ones on machine-tools - or inside a Laycock de Normanville add-on overdrive - could last a serious span of years, tears, or miles.

Ones purpose-built for Marine service are also au fait with water. Any boater serious enough to have the need, here, should already be familiar with their use, not need a lot of expensive retraining after a coffee break..

Can't see making a dumb job any more complicated than adapting that sort of proven tech and going off to solve a real problem.

Feathering and cone clutches? Haven't run into that combo myself.However they grip seriously well.

Yes rat. I have never heard of feathering a cone clutch either. My first sailboat was a forty foot deadrise with an Atomic four engine coupled with a reducer and a cone clutch. There was no way that was going to be feathered. It was pretty much on or off. It never slipped.

From a question about a winch drive to Voith-Schneider egg beaters, double endee ferries and phantom 2 speed tugs this thread has sure covered some ground.

I think OP will find hydraulic drive will best suit his needs.