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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie_obe View Post
    Your immune system can't fight off a virus it hasn't met before. Medical fact.
    Of course it can. That's it's job.

    We don't have any existing immunity because it's new, but people that get the virus develop the antibodies against it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie_obe View Post
    You already said it, but it hasn't been explained by doctors yet. Mild symptoms, maybe your immune system just reacts more quickly upon detection of a foreign invader? No overt symptoms, maybe you had a mild case and it wasn't recognized for what it was? Now you may have temporary or lifetime (unknown) immunity?

    I'm relating was was presented by an auto-immune disease specialist at conference. The question about flu shots was specifically asked and that was the answer.
    My objection is that "presentations by experts" such as this get lapped up as "fact" without a critical thought. IN SPITE of lots and lots of real world evidence to the contrary.

    Submission is the real disease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Of course it can. That's it's job.

    We don't have any existing immunity because it's new, but people that get the virus develop the antibodies against it.
    Not as simple as you present it.
    Turn in your medical diploma.

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  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie_obe View Post
    Your immune system can't fight off a virus it hasn't met before. Medical fact.
    Even persons with an immune systems that is in a hyper activated state 24/7 due to an auto-immune disease aren't immune to the flu virus or Covid-19.

    It seems that several things affect this.

    A hyper-active immune system is one thing that kills you..... look up "cytokine storm"....

    Of course your immune system can do something, the question is whether it can adapt fast enough.

    It seems to depend on a lot of things... like what blood type you are. What race you are. And more. If you are type "A" blood, you are in trouble, for instance.

    And if the hospital does the usual and parks you in a bed on your back, you may die, because the position ensures that the virus is allowed to drain into your lungs. Apparently if it stays in your nose, you are much better off, and may get through with little or no trouble. Takeaway... sleep on your side, and make sure the nurses do not keep turning you over for their convenience.

    Don't get to hot on the idea that young folks get through it OK. The first deaths here were 30 or under.

    It does seem to spread, all those places that were so hot to open up seem to be shutting again after they found out it didn't work too well.

    I look for the virus to get weaker with time. Viruses have to avoid killing their hosts too soon, or they "die out", by running out of hosts to infect. If it takes 1 day to become infectious, and 15 days to get sick, that's ideal for crowded conditions, each can infect the max number of people before dying. but even then, many need to survive to carry the virus elsewhere, or the virus soon runs out of hosts and that's it.

    Don't expect the medical folks to automatically know all about it, it's new, it came from chinese bats a few months ago, apparently, and what it does in people has been studied for just a few months.

    Makes sense that it came from bats, it seems to make many folks bat-shit crazy, and that's before they even get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie_obe View Post
    Not as simple as you present it.
    Turn in your medical diploma.
    Don't need a medical degree to recognize something that dumb.

    Here's a simple explanation from the experts how the immune system does what you say it can't do.

    How does the immune system work? - InformedHealth.org - NCBI Bookshelf

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  9. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    My objection is that "presentations by experts" such as this get lapped up as "fact" without a critical thought. IN SPITE of lots and lots of real world evidence to the contrary.

    Submission is the real disease.
    Critical thinking, much like satire, is also dead.

    But I understand how it can happen- complete oversaturation of the mind. This expert says this, that expert says that, ALL MEDIA is out to capture clicks...who can keep up? So folks latch to an idea, good or bad, and ride along with it.

    I'm a skeptic, of all of it, but that's no better a position than the aforementioned. What's a guy to do?

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    What's a guy to do?
    Read critically and use your brain. Slight errors or slips of the tongue I can overlook but when people pull things totally out of their ass, move along. Instead of just lapping up "so and so says ..." see if what they say makes sense. Does it match with what you observe and accept as fact (steel is denser than aluminum, for example) ?

    Like that thing Rob F linked to the other day, in the first five minutes she pulled two whoppers out of her pants. Okay, bye ... there's an "expert" I don't need.

    Not that difficult, just takes a little mental exercise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Don't need a medical degree to recognize something that dumb.

    Here's a simple explanation from the experts how the immune system does what you say it can't do.

    How does the immune system work? - InformedHealth.org - NCBI Bookshelf
    Adaptive immune system, that's why you need a flu shot every year. That's why you body doesn't immediately shrug off the Covid-19 virus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Don't need a medical degree to recognize something that dumb.
    Absolutely dumb. The human immune system can recognize and protect against any disease, that's what it's for !

    Which explains why the American Indians were decimated by white man diseases.

    Maybe Crazy Horse is smiling, in a tipi in the sky somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Read critically and use your brain. Slight errors or slips of the tongue I can overlook but when people pull things totally out of their ass, move along. Instead of just lapping up "so and so says ..." see if what they say makes sense. Does it match with what you observe and accept as fact (steel is denser than aluminum, for example) ?

    Like that thing Rob F linked to the other day, in the first five minutes she pulled two whoppers out of her pants. Okay, bye ... there's an "expert" I don't need.

    Not that difficult, just takes a little mental exercise.
    Right.

    Do you reallythink everyone does that?

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie_obe View Post
    Adaptive immune system, that's why you need a flu shot every year. That's why you body doesn't immediately shrug off the Covid-19 virus.
    That is not accurate either.

    The reason there is a new flu shot every year is because the flu viruses mutate. Since we vaccinate against the portion of the virus that mutates, we have to anticipate the changes from year to year. This is the WHO's job, it is done every February (for the next flu season) because it takes time to produce the vaccines, and different parts of the world may get different vaccines at different times.

    The purpose of the vaccine is to stimulate the immune system to produce the antibodies for "this year's variant". Some years they get a good vaccine, some years they miss and don't do as well.

    There is a portion of the flu virus that does not mutate. The holy grail for Fauci is the universal flu vaccine. That would create antibodies that attack that stable portion of the virus, and one shot would make you immune (in theory) from all variants of influenza. Since that part of the virus does not change, your vaccine could be a "once and done" thing. Eradicate influenza permanently.

    The search for that vaccine is why Fauci has stayed with the NIAID under the last 5 Presidents instead of heading up the entire NIH- and every one of them offered him the job. It's kind of his personal white whale. It is a particularly difficult thing to do, much easier to target the other part of the virus.

    With the China Coronavirus, since we do not have any existing acquired immunity (or a vaccine to force it), our immune system is on it's own. That's why it doesn't shrug it off COVID immediately. A large part of the problem is actually due to the immune system over-responding.

    Absent the antibody information, it fights with other weapons, and works on developing the antibodies. When it does eventually shrug it off, it does so by creating 2 different antibodies. One antibody blocks the virus from attaching to a cell, and the other one blocks the virus from replicating. The antibody that blocks the connection is believed to provide a short-term immunity, and the one that blocks replication is believed to be a longer lasting (possibly permanent) immunity.

    Ultimately what they develop in the form of a vaccine will depend on a lot of factors, but they expect a similar experience as they have with flu. Relatively easy to make a short term vaccine, but much more difficult to make the long term one.

    Your statement that I replied to:
    Your immune system can't fight off a virus it hasn't met before. Medical fact.
    is just completely false. The immune system fights any and all invaders, in multiple ways.

    Even smallpox "only" had a 30% mortality rate...

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    what happens is when you get infected with a virus your body hasn't seen before
    there is a race, between your immune system and the replicating virus.
    if the virus wins you die, if your immune system wins you probably live
    a bit of an over simplification. but that's the general idea
    lots of factors that help determine the out come of that race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    So what has DJT done to YOU, and/or your countrymen ?

    One little item ….GMO, and your off completely ?
    Enter into "negotiations"....duh.

    How is France, Germany, and Italy helping you ?
    DJT Nas done me no harm at all,no problem there.
    France, Germany and Italy helped me by showing me how to vote in the Brexit referendum, I thank them for that.
    I was not thinking about GMO when I said about food more your beef and chicken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Critical thinking, much like satire, is also dead.
    You don't say!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post

    P.S. Look up photos of Boris Johnson (our Prime Minister ) both pre and post him contracting Covid 19 and him spending some time in ICU.
    Yikes...His hair has suffered greatly....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    Fouled the planet on which I live.
    Evidence ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Critical thinking, much like satire, is also dead.
    Been an observation/subject of "Non-Sequitur" for some time now....

    Today on Non Sequitur - Comics by Wiley Miller - GoComics
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails non-sequitor-criticalthinking.jpg  

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    There are two crucial concepts that many don’t fully understand leading to confusion about control of the pandemic.

    1) The infected population grows exponentially. I don’t mean exponential as often used to mean “fast”, but in the mathematical sense: growth over time is multiplicative, not additive. If the infected population is doubling every week as it is now in some places, it will increase 16-fold in a month, and more than 1,000 fold in 10 weeks. The rate is controlled by two things: the average time it takes a newly infected individual to become capable of transmitting the infection, and the average number of people newly infected by each transmitter. If the latter (a parameter many epidemiologists call R) is less than one, the disease will die out. If more than one, it will grow. Precautions against transmission obviously drive this number down. Locally (in MA) we seem to be holding R close to one, with about 200 new cases a day for the past week or so. I expect that any further reopening will increase transmission, push into exponential growth, and require backtracking unless done very carefully.

    2) There are substantial time delays between taking action and seeing results due to the delay between infection and retransmission mentioned above. Anyone who has tried to design control systems for dynamic processes knows how destabilizing time delays can be if not properly accounted for. Stabilization requires negative feedback whenever the rate of infection is increasing. With time delays not properly accounted for, positive feedback may Be applied while rates are increasing. For example, infections rates are low and control measures are relaxed increasing transmission. New cases are not detected for a couple of weeks despite the increased transmission, due to the incubation period following infection, so controls are loosened again. This second loosening provides positive feedback because it increases transmission while transmission is still increasing and drives up the exponential rate of increase. The situation is analogous to control of a nuclear reactor, where the generation of neutrons is an exponential process regulated by negative feedback with control rods. Applying positive feedback when the rate of reaction is increasing is a big mistake: ask the folks at Chernobyl. The CDC guidelines suggest appropriate time delays to avoid this feedback reversal. Some follow them, others do not. There’s no mystery to the outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Hell, they might. I just think going around clubbing folks you don't agree with to be inviting trouble. Maybe not, never tried it myself!
    People ignoring mask requirments in store will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.

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  29. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Absolutely dumb. The human immune system can recognize and protect against any disease, that's what it's for !

    Which explains why the American Indians were decimated by white man diseases.

    Maybe Crazy Horse is smiling, in a tipi in the sky somewhere.

    Idiot...

    If the immune system did not have the capability to respond to virtually any threat, there would not be a "native American" (so-called) left alive. They would have ALL died. So would all the white folks.

    The folks with the best responding immune systems survived. Others died. Ever heard of "survival of the fittest"? Evidently not.

    Ignorance is forgivable.

    Stubborn and defiant ignorance is, well, "less forgivable".

    In this case, we do not have to bother forgiving or not forgiving. That will take care of itself, a certain percentage of the stubborn and defiant ignorant folks will no longer be a problem. Many others may learn a lesson.

    Some will not learn, and they will not be a problem after the next such disease (and yes, another one is coming).


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