OT- Do any surgical anti snoring procedures actually work ?
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    Default OT- Do any surgical anti snoring procedures actually work ?

    For example - https://www.withoutsnoring.com/wp-co...-solutions.jpg

    I use one of those mouthpieces that protrude the lower jaw (Z Quiet) and for me it does work...amazingly well in fact.... but not the most pleasant thing to wear...not bad really but sure would be nice to not need it.

    And real world experience with one of the surgical proceedures at the link ? The "pillar" one sounds especially interesting.

    --------------

    Also curious if any of you have experience with a generic lower jaw protrusion mouthpiece like the Z Quiet, and a dentist supplied type that conforms perfectly to your teeth, like the Silent Night...and wondering if the custom one is a little more pleasant to use...or a lot more pleasant...about the same, or ?

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    Can't help with your exact question, but a CPAP works for me.

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    I do know that the CPAP route appears to be a big scheme.

    Seems that everyone that goes for the sleep study fails it, even though
    everyone I know that has one said "I couldn't get any sleep in that lab"

    And I don't see anyone that uses one, get any of the benefits claimed (more restfull sleep, weight loss,
    better heart health)

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    Well, Doug, first, I'd ask if you've done (or analyzed) well-controlled sufficiently powered clinical studies supporting your view? Or is this just an ignorant prejudice formed from talking to a few friends and derived from CPAP-conspiracy-theory websites?

    I'm harsh, because if its the latter then the opinion you've shared isn't just an uninformed opionion: it could have a negative effect on someone's health. Your position just isn't supported by the data, friend.

    Regarding the sleep study, ask yourself: are the people going to their doctors with sleep problems (like snoring, not feeling rested, and poor general health due to bad sleep), and being referred to sleep specialists ones who are likely to have sleep problems like apnea? Of course they are! So sleep studies are mostly confirmatory - and a positive result for apnea would be expected in almost all cases. Why is this viewed as a data point in favor of skepticism? In my case, my sleep specialist would have prescribed the CPAP right off the bat, but needed the study to support what he already knew.

    So now you know at least one person that uses one and both me (and more importantly Mrs. bosleyjr) like it. I'm in the "moderate apnea" range. My oxygen tension was less then 90. I was stopping breathing in the middle of the night. When that happened, and my wife was awake, which was frequent due to snoring, she'd jab me in the ribs to get my breathing going again.

    In addition to keeping me breathing (and the Mrs. sleeping) all night, the clean (both a foam filter and a little cloth HEPA filter) and humidified air has reduced sinus infections to near zero. Once these infections were a chronic problem. So I now don't need to use a Neti pot and more importantly I don't need to use a nasal corticosteroid chronically. Both of these are correlated with negative health effects. Getting rid of those two things is correlated with a big improvement in health.

    Not all people get my level of response, and so not all people have my level of compliance - about 99.9%. But the benefits I get far exceed any inconvenience.

    I sleep better, have lost weight, and can only presume that not having my O2 level go to moderate apneic levels is helping my heart. BTW, your criticism is a little unfair: if someone dies of a heart attack* due to apnea or some other cause, how would YOU know that cause? Perhaps more apropos to others (because everyone's different) the epidemiology supports CPAP, or the insurance companies wouldn't pay for it. If anyone out there has a doc that says "try CPAP", I'd strongly recommend doing so. May not help everyone, but it certainly helps enough people sufficiently to support insurance paying for it.

    And there's the downside argument: you can die from apnea. Even if you're a young, incredibly strong professional athlete like hall-of-famer Reggie White.

    BTW, I used distilled water for humidity, and to rinse the water tank daily. Wash with dish soap once a week and rinse with distilled water. Only way to go: the distilled water doesn't leave any mineral residue and the thing stays clean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bosleyjr View Post
    Well, Doug, first, I'd ask if you've done (or analyzed) well-controlled sufficiently powered clinical studies supporting your view? Or is this just an ignorant prejudice formed from talking to a few friends and derived from CPAP-conspiracy-theory websites?

    I'm harsh, because if its the latter then the opinion you've shared isn't just an uninformed opionion: it could have a negative effect on someone's health. Your position just isn't supported by the data, friend.

    So now you know at least one person that uses one and both me (and more importantly Mrs. bosleyjr) like it. I'm in the "moderate apnea" range. My oxygen tension was less then 90. I was stopping breathing in the middle of the night. When that happened, and my wife was awake, which was frequent due to snoring, she'd jab me in the ribs to get my breathing going again.

    In addition to keeping me breathing (and the Mrs. sleeping) all night, the clean (both a foam filter and a little cloth HEPA filter) and humidified air has reduced sinus infections to near zero. Once these were a chronic problem. So I don't need to use a Neti pot and more importantly I don't need to use a nasal corticosteroid chronically. Both of these are correlated with negative health effects.

    Not all people get my level of response, and so not all people have my level of compliance - about 99.9%. But the benefits I get far exceed any inconvenience.

    BTW, I used distilled water for humidity, and to rinse the water tank daily. Wash with dish soap once a week. Only way to go: the distilled water doesn't leave any mineral residue and the thing stays clean.

    I sleep better, have lost weight, and can only presume that not having my O2 level go to moderate apneic levels is helping my heart. BTW, your criticism is a little unfair: if someone dies of a heart attack* due to apnea or some other cause, how would YOU know that cause? Perhaps more apropos to others (because everyone's different) the epidemiology supports CPAP, or the insurance companies wouldn't pay for it. If your doc says try it, I'd strongly recommend trying a CPAP. May not help everyone, but it certainly helps many people enough to support insurance paying for it.
    Your the first.

    duly noted.

    And also duly noted your hatred towards me, cram you attitude sir !

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    This is interesting.... sound bleak on the pillar proceedure

    The Pillar Implant Procedure: Does It Work? - Sleep Review

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    duly noted your hatred towards me, cram you attitude sir !
    Doug, no hatred. I've read a lot of your posts and you know a lot more about machine work than I do, and I appreciate your views.

    I do medical research, and see inappropriate arguments (even from MDs and PhDs who should know better, btw) all the time. And if you've read this forum long enough you occasionally see people writing in to ask medical questions, and people writing back with completely inappropriate suggestions. Inappropriate because
    1) The responder does not have a broad-based medical education that would allow them to make definitive recommendations from a basis of comprehensive knowledge.
    2) The responder has done neither a physical exam, nor a clinical interview, nor do they have all of the patient's specific lab results back.
    3) The responder has not done an analysis of the epidemiology. That is, they have no idea of the prevalence of specific diseases, nor of the range of response to specific medications
    4) The responder has no comprehensive (or even basic) idea of what the likely adverse effects of each therapy are
    5) The responder has no comprehensive (or even basic) idea of what the likely drug-drug and drug-diet interactions are (and woudn't know all of the drugs the patient uses anyway)
    6) The responder has no idea whatsoever of the sensitivity and specificity of tests being discussed (this relates to the rate of true and false positives and negatives and is REALLY important)
    7) In some cases, when the responder recommends against a treatment, they have no idea what the morbidity and mortality statistics are for going without treatment.

    Your post hit my nerves number 3 and 7.

    So my vitriol was not against you, but to discourage such responses because I think that they're harmful to others. I was harsh not to dis you, but (I hope) to help others.

    Again, no animus: I respect your impressive technology knowledge.

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    Apparently YOUR CPAP system is NOT working eh ?

    You directed it DIRECTLY at ME.

    The system does not work in the REAL WORLD (where I reside thank you), the mask moves ever so slightly, and all benefits are lost. Doctors blame the patients as "not trying hard enough"
    Same with obesity.

    The establishment needs to spend less money on aids research, and more on permanent snoring fixes.

    "Doug, no hatred. I've read a lot of your posts and you know a lot more about machine work than I do, and I appreciate your views.

    I do medical research, and see inappropriate arguments (even from MDs and PhDs who should know better, btw) all the time. And if you've read this forum long enough you occasionally see people writing in to ask medical questions, and people writing back with completely inappropriate suggestions. Inappropriate because
    1) The responder does not have a broad-based medical education that would allow them to make definitive recommendations from a basis of comprehensive knowledge.
    2) The responder has done neither a physical exam, nor a clinical interview, nor do they have all of the patient's specific lab results back.
    3) The responder has not done an analysis of the epidemiology. That is, they have no idea of the prevalence of specific diseases, nor of the range of response to specific medications
    4) The responder has no comprehensive (or even basic) idea of what the likely adverse effects of each therapy are
    5) The responder has no comprehensive (or even basic) idea of what the likely drug-drug and drug-diet interactions are (and woudn't know all of the drugs the patient uses anyway)
    6) The responder has no idea whatsoever of the sensitivity and specificity of tests being discussed (this relates to the rate of true and false positives and negatives and is REALLY important)

    So my vitriol was do discourage such responses because I think that they're harmful to others. That is, I was harsh not to dis you, but to help others"

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    I do know that the CPAP route appears to be a big scheme.

    Seems that everyone that goes for the sleep study fails it, even though
    everyone I know that has one said "I couldn't get any sleep in that lab"

    And I don't see anyone that uses one, get any of the benefits claimed (more restfull sleep, weight loss,
    better heart health)
    I did my study at home so my sleep routine was more or less 'normal' (for the study). My results were that I was waking up roughly 45 times an hour.. sounds high right? That's what I thought*. A month on the machine and had to go back for a follow up (ins reasons really). I told the DR, well to be honest I don't feel any different. I still wake up tired and grouchy and whatnot.

    * How could anyone wake up 45 times an hour, or every 80 seconds and have any kind of rest, or normal functioning, doesn't seem possible to me, but hey, I am not the 'specialist'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    This is interesting.... sound bleak on the pillar proceedure

    The Pillar Implant Procedure: Does It Work? - Sleep Review
    My wife did the pillar procedure and it really didn't make much difference. When we were serious / going steady / engaged she had her epiglottis removed + pillar thing, didn't help. (Real trooper though). [If I don't get proper sleep I'm pretty useless / start getting pretty depressed.].

    What did help was a wedge she sleeps on at the right angle, + white noise machine and I wear ear plugs to go to sleep every night. TMI (I know)…

    When we move house we might get a better all singing and dancing bed that can support more specific and complex angles to help the snoring. Not good for someone's back / neck to sleep on a wedge.

    Tough nut to crack.

    CPAP machines (for some ) are a real life saver IMO (literally).

    My wife also did the sleep studies with the take home "Gear" and electronics but did not show she had sleep apnea.

    Sometimes when the snoring gets really bad I just go into the next room with ear plugs shoved in very firmly/ sleep on the couch. [You just wouldn't think that some one that slight/ normal build and good looking could possibly snore that loudly.].

    I'm a little PTSD / CPTSD so I'm a very light sleeper, any slight noise and I cock one eye open, but the ear plugs become VERY addictive in the sense I can't sleep without them now... But a GOOD night's sleep though.


    Hope that helps ?

    Good luck on the snore elimination front... You'll probably find and try many gizmos until you find what works for you.

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    My brother had something done at hospital here to reduce the noise he makes when snoring a few years ago. Like all hospital operations here doesn't cost anything.

    Long story short, whatever they did it only helped slightly and for some time afterwards wore some kind of Darth Vader mask (I've never seen it so I'm probably exaggerating) and he found it too annoying to keep using at night.

    When his wife can't sleep for the noise she just moves into another room.

    He's/they're on holiday at the moment but when he gets back (sailing somewhere) I'll ask for details.

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    Non-surgical: I gave my wife a large ball-pein hammer. I stopped snoring in three days.
    Aversion therapy works wonders.

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    I recently saw an ad for a nasal CPAP. Instead of covering the mouth and nose it had some kind of cup that just covered the nose.

    For some reason surgery in that region only has limited success. I know people who had sinus surgery and it didn't do what they hoped. Same for pallet surgery. AFAIK the root cause of all these problems is inflammation and even after surgery it can still be a problem.

    I really feel for those of you who suffer from sleep problems. Probably the only answer in the short term is to compare options with other sufferers and try things that have worked for them. I would avoid surgery unless a majority of patients had positive outcomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    For some reason surgery in that region only has limited success.
    So amazing that even in 2019 such a seemingly simple "mechanical" problem apparently has no real surgical "fix it for good" cure. The Pillar Proceedure addressed an issue that made so much sense, the idea seemed on the right track. And yet the more I read good results just aren't there.

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    Not answering your question I know but how is breathing through your nose in general?

    I ask because I had chronic sinus issues which woke me up in the night and i snored a lot. Finally found an ENT that took one look in my nose and booked me for surgery, I had a severely deviated septum and bone spur on the right side and a huge mucus retention cyst in my right maxillary sinus.

    The septoplasty and "FESS" (functional endoscopic sinus surgery) were no where near as bad as you might have heard. No black eyes, very little pain, no broken nose, she just realigned the soft cartilage and sucked out the MRS. The worst were the plugs in my nose for a week but when they were removed I was able to breath like never before! I slept much better and my snoring virtually stopped.

    Dr. asked if I got hit in the nose as a kid and I remembered when that boomerang actually came back like it was supposed to...

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    I'm sure my wife has considered cutting my throat. That is a sure surgical cure for snoring. There may be a short period of gurgling before it stops completly
    She snores too but after 35 years its just background noise to me.

    I used an phone app. for recording sleep disruptions and I definitely gasp for air at times. It sounds pretty bad. I may try one of the over the counter devices in the link above. I wont add another medical problem to my records. The vena cava filter that has three prongs perforating my vena cava vein will get me first. I think sleep apnea has always been connected to snoring its just became more studied to control it in recent years. My wife just started snoring as I'm typing but its steady along with breathing. Not interrupted or loud. She starts work at 4 a.m.
    Its nap time after work.
    I would love to sleep more than an hour at a time. Sleep wonderful sleep.

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    My late Mum always reckoned an elbow in the snorers ribs worked every time, ………….and her elbow was sharp enough to be surgical.

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    30 years ago I had uvulopalatopharyngoplasty to help correct snoring and sleep. No question about it - I had immediate and, I presume, permanent improvement. I also had a really impressively sore throat for a few days afterward, but chocolate malts helped that a bit. No ill effects in the three decades since.

    If memory serves the procedure cost me about 45 bucks with an overnight stay in the hospital. Another big "X" in the Kaiser Foundation survey box labeled "extremely satisfied". . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    You directed it DIRECTLY at ME.
    Doug, the original post was directed at one thing you said in one post and not at any of the other 13,870 other posts you've made. It may seem like I was going after you, personally, but that wasn't the intent. So this IS directed directly at you: I have a lot of respect for your knowledge, and regret writing anything that could possibly be a personal attack on you. If my wording was inept and it came across to you that way, I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    The system does not work in the REAL WORLD (where I reside thank you), the mask moves ever so slightly, and all benefits are lost.
    I use a nose pillow arrangement, and this works fine for me. It does get joggled, but for the most part stays in place enough to remain effective. For me at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Doctors blame the patients as "not trying hard enough"
    Yes, well that would PO me. Despite my points above, counseling getting medical advice from a trained, experienced, licensed professional who has examined you and seen your test results, I'd also counsel firing any physician who is a gratuitous pr**k.

    BTW, regarding obesity research, one of my friends is what you call a world expert (he's a tenured research at the NIH). One of his (Kevin Hall) key results is that the body does fight changes. So losing weight is hard, and probably a long process. If it took you five years to gain 50 lbs, you're not going to loose it and maintain it easily in a month. Another recent bit of advice from his work is that eating hyper-refined foods is correlated with obesity. The more you can avoid refined sugar, high-fructose corn syrup, oils and other things that concentrate energy, the better you are. The hypothesis is that a single food can only give you so much satiety - so you don't feel full (even) after a 1 pound bag of potato chips.May not be a revelation, but its something. I don't drink any sweetened sodas (except when I've taken the safety precaution of diluting the soda with some form of alcohol) and avoid potato and (mostly) tortilla chips. I also try to avoid anything with high-fructose corn syrup. I haven't given up fine cheeses on crackers before dinner, but perhaps I should. Sigh....

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    After years of my wife complaining and waking me up from stopping breathing or waking myself up choking for air, I agreed to see the doctor. They said I had sleep apnea but had to see a ENT dr to get a study done and jump through the hoops or insurance wouldn't touch any of it. I did my sleep study at home. I woke up around 50 times an hour and stopped breathing about 30 times/night. I hate the thing with a passion. It does help my snoring and makes sure I keep breathing, but I don't feel any more rested. I also use the nose pillows, because the mask made me feel like I was choking.

    The fact is it helps you stay alive. If it wasn't for stopping breathing in the middle of the night, I would never use the damn thing. I talked to my doctor about surgery and he said in most cases they don't work. Some people find a little relief, but it's a shot in the dark and more often than not they have to use their CPAP after.


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