OT engineering fastener load calculation stuff - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    So much of interest here. ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    WHY? I actually think a winch pull could be significantly more dangerous than a lift.
    If a lift fails? The load is coming down. Straight down if it is a single line lift. As long as your not under it, you should be good.
    If a winch decides to separate from a vehicle? You would like to think its going to go in the direction of the pull. But, no guarantees on that.
    That couldn't be further from the truth, and there is no comparison between the risks from winching and lifting. Both are dangerous, but lifting much more so because of the energy from the fall. 1000lbs of pull is 1000lbs of pull. A 1000lb load falling is instantly more than that. F=MA.

    Sent via CNC 88HS

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    Mcmaster has clip on nuts which has what looks to be a proper nut on the u-clip, although there is no rating for the nut in the catalog, which is no surprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    So much of interest here. ...
    It's been a while since I've done this type of work, if my numbers are wrong or concepts improperly applied feel free to correct!

    Sent via CNC 88HS

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Mcmaster has clip on nuts which has what looks to be a proper nut on the u-clip, although there is no rating for the nut in the catalog, which is no surprise.
    Yea, I can not find a single spec on these things anywhere. Which leads me to believe they are not intended for critical applications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    It's been a while since I've done this type of work, if my numbers are wrong or concepts improperly applied feel free to correct!

    Sent via CNC 88HS
    Well, I appreciate the input. I'm getting a lot of flack from people saying I am being overly critical, or "out of my league" (true).
    I'm just trying to understand how, what looks to me like a blatant bad-call on fasteners, is okay.

    I've put a lot of shit together, broken a lot of shit, and built a lot of shit (that didn't break!).
    I might not be a mechanical engineer. But, I have TONS of experience wrenching on shit. My experience says these fasteners are a hard "no effing way!"

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  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Yea, I can not find a single spec on these things anywhere. Which leads me to believe they are not intended for critical applications.
    I've never seen them used on anything but plastics and the like.

    If you want to do a little deeper dive on hex nuts, ASTM A194 and ASME B18.2 are great starts.

    Sent via CNC 88HS

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Well, I appreciate the input. I'm getting a lot of flack from people saying I am being overly critical, or "out of my league" (true).
    I'm just trying to understand how, what looks to me like a blatant bad-call on fasteners, is okay.

    I've put a lot of shit together, broken a lot of shit, and built a lot of shit (that didn't break!).
    I might not be a mechanical engineer. But, I have TONS of experience wrenching on shit. My experience says these fasteners are a hard "no effing way!"
    I'm just wondering what winch you got so I stay away from it lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I did. They are lower, much much lower than the numbers I (and Cole) are coming up with for a grade-5 bolt.
    I don't know if that is because they are forged? Designed for side-loads? Cut threads rather than rolled? Specs specifically for lifting?
    But I don't think that is a good reference.

    Which brings me to this:




    WHY? I actually think a winch pull could be significantly more dangerous than a lift.
    If a lift fails? The load is coming down. Straight down if it is a single line lift. As long as your not under it, you should be good.
    If a winch decides to separate from a vehicle? You would like to think its going to go in the direction of the pull. But, no guarantees on that.
    Why not use the eyebolt ratings ?
    Yes they are much lower. Your playing Roulette here, it's not based on reality.

    Use the lower number, and sleep good at night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    That couldn't be further from the truth, and there is no comparison between the risks from winching and lifting. Both are dangerous, but lifting much more so because of the energy from the fall. 1000lbs of pull is 1000lbs of pull. A 1000lb load falling is instantly more than that. F=MA.

    Sent via CNC 88HS

    A falling load does, however, have a fairly well known danger zone, which is generally under it.

    A winch has a pretty big area over which a broken cable might whip through. The winch itself may not whip as much, but it, and broken pieces of whatever was used to attach it, can still threaten a fairly wide area.

    They are different, but not necessarily different as far as the potential to cause an injury. A falling load is more likely to kill you, depending.

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    yep, they are designed to hold light loads together in sheet metal that is paper thin, and usually the sheet is the weak link. i would expect them to hold max 750 lbs before ripping out or deforming the base material.
    normally they hold plastic or steel shrouds on cars or in fenders or fan ducts where there isn't much pulling, even then there are usually many every 5-8"

    think of it like a spot weld, they can hold 500 lbs on 16GA but engineers design them in multiples so if 75% are good then it still meets safety spec.

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  14. #32
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    and let me guess, this said winch is on a Jeep?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BT Fabrication View Post
    yep, they are designed to hold light loads together in sheet metal that is paper thin, and usually the sheet is the weak link. i would expect them to hold max 750 lbs before ripping out or deforming the base material.
    normally they hold plastic or steel shrouds on cars or in fenders or fan ducts where there isn't much pulling, even then there are usually many every 5-8"

    think of it like a spot weld, they can hold 500 lbs on 16GA but engineers design them in multiples so if 75% are good then it still meets safety spec.
    That is exactly what I was thinking! And why I was pretty much dumbfounded when I saw them intended to mount a winch bumper.

    I know EXACTLY why they are using them: the design of their bumper makes a proper nut/bolt a bitch (I know, because I did it).
    So they are after ease of installation (and probably less complaints from customers who don't know any better).
    The cherry on top is using 3/8" hardware in existing holes that will accept 1/2". Again I know because I did it. (factory is 12mm fine-thread)
    When all they really had to do was a proper weld-nut. I am sure the tolerances on the vehicles frame are tight enough that they would not have had problems.
    I worked with these guys a couple years ago on a project. They sure put on a good show that they knew what they were doing. And that their stuff was top shelf.
    Their facility is very nice and well equipped. I was pretty comfortable I was buying good stuff. I should have done more research!

    Quote Originally Posted by BT Fabrication View Post
    and let me guess, this said winch is on a Jeep?
    Why yes, it is. Why?

  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    That is exactly what I was thinking! And why I was pretty much dumbfounded when I saw them intended to mount a winch bumper.

    I know EXACTLY why they are using them: the design of their bumper makes a proper nut/bolt a bitch (I know, because I did it).
    So they are after ease of installation (and probably less complaints from customers who don't know any better).
    The cherry on top is using 3/8" hardware in existing holes that will accept 1/2". Again I know because I did it. (factory is 12mm fine-thread)
    When all they really had to do was a proper weld-nut. I am sure the tolerances on the vehicles frame are tight enough that they would not have had problems.
    I worked with these guys a couple years ago on a project. They sure put on a good show that they knew what they were doing. And that their stuff was top shelf.
    Their facility is very nice and well equipped. I was pretty comfortable I was buying good stuff. I should have done more research!



    Why yes, it is. Why?
    We're just checking to see if you're secretly Swiss...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    We're just checking to see if you're secretly Swiss...
    That flew right over my head?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    A falling load does, however, have a fairly well known danger zone, which is generally under it.

    A winch has a pretty big area over which a broken cable might whip through. The winch itself may not whip as much, but it, and broken pieces of whatever was used to attach it, can still threaten a fairly wide area.

    They are different, but not necessarily different as far as the potential to cause an injury. A falling load is more likely to kill you, depending.
    Whats' worse, death by something falling on you, or a steel cable breaking/coming undone and taking a limb or two

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    Aside from all the theory, if the winch is attached to a jeep, and you intend to pull something with the jeep stationary, how are you going to keep the jeep from moving? Tie a log chain to the the back bumper and then to a tree? Park the jeep in back of two large trees and snake the cable between them? How much is the cable rated for? How about the gears inside the winch or has the motor enough oomph?

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Aside from all the theory, if the winch is attached to a jeep, and you intend to pull something with the jeep stationary, how are you going to keep the jeep from moving? Tie a log chain to the the back bumper and then to a tree? Park the jeep in back of two large trees and snake the cable between them? How much is the cable rated for? How about the gears inside the winch or has the motor enough oomph?

    Tom
    People tie off vehicles to winch all the time.
    Some things just need to be built/assembled for the worst case scenario. I think this is one of them.

    In the big picture, opinions don't really mean shit. Even/especially mine. This is why I was digging for actual specifications on these fasteners.
    We have both ends of the spectrum in here already for opinions.
    Cole thinks those U-nuts will hold as much as the bolt that is threaded in to them. Over 6,000lbs if I am understanding him correct.
    BT Fab thinks they are good for about 750lbs. Which I am sure is an educated WAG.
    I tend to think BT is much closer to reality! Especially considering the size of the hole they are sliding that thing over.

  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    That flew right over my head?
    OT: drilling out an ignition lock

    Dian is a Swiss member who has a Jeep.

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    I'm still waiting on the winch manufacturer who thinks this is legit...


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