OT- High compression automobile engines...worth the extra fuel cost ? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Attachment 240208

    How about this one? It is a bit trick. It is one of the few DDs made in aluminum. You will note that it has been heavily modified to be a sailboat auxiliary. It has dual oil pumps with pickups in both the front and rear of the oil pan. I have swapped the blower and governor to their opposite sides from original. You cannot see it but it has a very special flywheel housing as well as an air starter. Please also note that the saltwater pump is now driven off the camshaft at 2/3rds of the original speed to improve pump longevity. Since this motor will be fed by a day tank, you may note the addition of a fuel cooler for the return fuel. There are many other mods as well. Jus sayin.......
    And there you are.. in Germany.. where GOOD Diesels for seed-corn are all around.. even in Sweden.. Nederlands.. France.. or Italy. Poland. Or even out of RUSSIA.

    Within easy day-trip range of the land of the Sacred L. Gardner and Sons.

    And you miss the chance to turn a DD into trace-element supplements for Earthworms?

    That's just plain preverted!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Don't we wish. And ain't I blessed the PO got a brand-new 4.2 under warranty at the 45,000 mile mark.

    Put your OBDC gadget on it. The GOOD one with all the live data streaming.

    Have a look at what OTHER kinky-fuckery it has gotten up to besides ignition timing.

    Just how much of that 7 BILLION dollars of Ford's money Jaguar blew d'you suppose was wasted because they could have run Jaguar's and Rovers on charcoal-starter fluid any sunny day, still aced emissions regulations, and not shortened the service life of the motors?

    Hot rodders. Know about two-percent of the field but are experts because two percent was all they ever gave a shit about to begin with, and f**k the rest.
    I;m a little confused... what does any of this have to do with detonation related engine failure? Also that live time OBD gauge isn't telling you shit as far as knock occurring in real time inside an engine. I can log timing graphs and get an idea how much timing the engine is pulling. In an automatic transmission car its a totally different deal than a manual car... an auto won't even let you lug the motor down at 1500 rpms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Actually I do have story about low octane destruction

    late 60's british bike, alloy connecting rods

    broke rider cheaping out to get home 100 miles away, pinging all the way

    on the way back, flush with a bit of extra cash from mom, using the right gas

    At highway speeds one or both connecting rods decide they want better ventilation and jump out the front of the block, seizing the rear wheel.

    takes a few increasing size fishtails to release death grip on bars and pull in the clutch.

    Apparently the pinging fractured the aluminum rods, so.........


    Not my story, but have full trust in the teller.
    What the fuck does a 60's triumph have to do with a modern EFI engine?? One with knock sensors, wide band 02's, coolant temp, air temp, barometric pressure, etc etc etc... beyond all that its a Triumph, if you look up unreliable in the dictionary...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    ... beyond all that its a Triumph, if you look up unreliable in the dictionary...
    LOL...ain't that the truth...I used to own one !

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    I;m a little confused...
    That has become blindingly apparent, yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    What the fuck does a 60's triumph have to do with a modern EFI engine?? One with knock sensors, wide band 02's, coolant temp, air temp, barometric pressure, etc etc etc... beyond all that its a Triumph, if you look up unreliable in the dictionary...
    What does your 15 minutes of working on cars have to do with, well anything?

    OEM's work on MTBF and 100s of millions of miles driven, not if it pulled into your driveway this month

    YEah, maybe they are covering their butts warranty wise, but when you say zero, you are wrong. Just because you did not see it does not mean it didn't happen

    Most of the time, with NA cars, in normal temp ranges, driven conservatively, the probability is near zero.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    LOL...ain't that the truth...I used to own one !
    Phhht. There was balance in the universe after all. The counterweight "Standard Triumph's" 4-wheeler TR2, TR3, TR3A. Motor out of a Canadian Massey-Ferguson FARM tractor was as reliable as rain. Same again Jaeger speedo and tach and the wooden body parts.

    Everything ELSE went to Hell, playing follow-the-leader behind the Prince of Darkness.

    Did you know that the curvaceous shape of potato chips was inspired by Triumph's wire wheels? Yah - they used to be dull and flat ''til the markeeters got the idea...

    Or maybe it was the other way 'round? Nah. They were never "round".

    What's the point? English country lanes were never flat, so where's the gain?

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    Prince of Darkness = Lucas ignition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    That has become blindingly apparent, yes.
    Wait... am I the hard one to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Most of the time, with NA cars, in normal temp ranges, driven conservatively, the probability is near zero.
    ISTR the figure around other than 70+ freeway scooting is that all we ask out of a 300 HP peak motor, is 10 to 30 HP. Which actually makes good ones harder to do well than a Lycoming aircraft engine, normally run steady-state by the hour.

    So yah - low-stress hides lots of potential challenges the makers have sessed-out in serious testing and shade-tree guys never do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    Wait... am I the hard one to understand?
    Not at all hard, no.

    You made it perfectly clear at the outset you were wrong enough to simply dismiss out of hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    What does your 15 minutes of working on cars have to do with, well anything?

    OEM's work on MTBF and 100s of millions of miles driven, not if it pulled into your driveway this month

    YEah, maybe they are covering their butts warranty wise, but when you say zero, you are wrong. Just because you did not see it does not mean it didn't happen

    Most of the time, with NA cars, in normal temp ranges, driven conservatively, the probability is near zero.
    I don't give a shit if you have worked on cars for 50 years. The technology has changed RADICALLY in the last 5 years. A GDI turbo gas engine isn't even the same animal as a port injected engine, which isn't even on the same fucking planet as a TBI engine or a carbed engine. Get with the times man... we have dual variable valve timing, varaible valve lift, variable vane turbo, twin injected GDI engines in fucking economy cars.

    But ya, what do I know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    But ya, what do I know...
    Not ENOUGH is what, Herr "buz" phrase.

    We don't have to love them for it, but can you guess what automakers who have NOW been CAUGHT "cheating" had to know to get away with that as long as they did?

    Probably not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Not ENOUGH is what, Herr "buz" phrase.

    We don't have to love them for it, but can you guess what automakers who have NOW been CAUGHT "cheating" had to know to get away with that as long as they did?

    Probably not...
    So what actual information do you have to actually provide and is any of it based on actual experience with modern fuel injected engines. Please do share stories about some military generator you ran back in 1958.
    Last edited by kustomizingkid; 10-16-2018 at 05:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    So what actually information do you have to actually to provide and is any of it based on actual experience with modern fuel injected engines. Please do share stories about some military generator you ran back in 1958.
    The only MYSTERY is why you expect. ..

    Oh... wait. I guess a fool WOULD expect attention, yah?

    Never mind...

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    Just a data point.

    When I had two kids attending school on the west coast, we made more than a few cross country drives in our 1999 Audi A8 with a 4.2 Liter V8.

    Highway mileage improvement by using the recommended Hi test was about 10% . That was about the same as the price difference between premium and mid grade. So it was a wash, except we also got 10% extended range on a tank of fuel.

    Around town, the mileage is poor at best (20mpg) regardless of fuel grade. We run mid grade with no issues for the past 10 years and 200 k miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Just a data point.

    When I had two kids attending school on the west coast, we made more than a few cross country drives in our 1999 Audi A8 with a 3.2 Liter V8.

    Highway mileage improvement by using the recommended Hi test was about 10% . That was about the same as the price difference between premium and mid grade. So it was a wash, except we also got 10% extended range on a tank of fuel.

    Around town, the mileage is poor at best (20mpg) regardless of fuel grade. We run mid grade with no issues for the past 10 years and 200 k miles.
    Yazz.. the major makers DO seem to have at least some slight HINT as to what they are doing, don't they! Only effective way to argue with them is to buy a different vehicle. Hasn't even been legal to alter their goods for Donkey's Years. EPA thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    I will double down on my statement and say that in a naturally aspirated engine absolutely zero... in a higher strung turbo engine MAYBE... Still honestly zero. In the newer direct injected engines even less, but they have a whole different set of problems. I haven't personally seen a single detonation failure of an engine in 10 years of wrenching. On second thought not entirely true, not on a stock engine, I have absolutely seen it in a modded engine but that is a whole nother can of worms.
    And....... you'd be wrong...... dead wrong. I do have some up to date knowledge of this arena. LSPI is one of the major technical issues facing IC engines right now. As mentioned before, lots and lots of work going on to solve this issue. It can be very destructive. It makes no difference whether the engine is turbo or not, it isn't about NA vs FI, it's about cylinder temperatures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel, timing, intake flow, etc.

    The modern engine has went from PCP's in the 7.5-8.5 mPa range to typically 10-11.5 mPa over the last 10 years or so and some are reaching toward the 13 mPa range, no matter whether forced or naturally aspirated. The problem is you are approaching the point where the fuel can go to ignition just from the compression stroke if the temp is elevated any. This is especially prone to happen in the low speed area of the RPM band.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonytn36 View Post
    And....... you'd be wrong...... dead wrong. I do have some up to date knowledge of this arena. LSPI is one of the major technical issues facing IC engines right now.
    Thank you. Several of us have brought ourselves up to date. Major point of personal concern whether I would even RISK the Ford/Jaguar 4.2, actually. There have been "issues".

    Also published work. One does the homework. Otherwise a dream can become a nightmare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonytn36 View Post
    And....... you'd be wrong...... dead wrong. I do have some up to date knowledge of this arena. LSPI is one of the major technical issues facing IC engines right now. As mentioned before, lots and lots of work going on to solve this issue. It can be very destructive. It makes no difference whether the engine is turbo or not, it isn't about NA vs FI, it's about cylinder temperatures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel, timing, intake flow, etc.

    The modern engine has went from PCP's in the 7.5-8.5 mPa range to typically 10-11.5 mPa over the last 10 years or so and some are reaching toward the 13 mPa range, no matter whether forced or naturally aspirated. The problem is you are approaching the point where the fuel can go to ignition just from the compression stroke if the temp is elevated any. This is especially prone to happen in the low speed area of the RPM band.
    Yup... and the modern stuff with CVT and 8 speed+ autos sit at 3k+ rpms. All I know is what I have seen in person and I haven't seen any detonation related engine damage or failures. Way more bottom end failures lately. The DI stuff loves to just blow up and bad when it does haha. The even better part is you can't even really fix the stuff when it goes wrong.

    Lots of shit goes wrong on cars... not seening it related to 87 vs 91 octane...

    I know you know the real story on the real failures at the oem level and are highly educated in the subject... I just get to see the stuff that makes it out into the real world past the warranty period. I will say its a good and bad time to be a mechanic. Lots and lots of really expensive failures on the new stuff, if the customers have money to pay for it, well its great. Very hard to find customers with $5k+ to fix their shit boxes.


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