OT, hydroxy associated with increased deaths, biggest study yet - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nt1953 View Post
    ....
    All sides in this debate are lying. Look for the facts and make your own decisions.
    Is it better than a good daily dose of nicotine? Now seems CBD also helps but not so much the left hand cigs high in THC.
    So many "facts" out there right now with true belivers.
    Who'd of thought that doctors and scientist would have differing opinions or bias on things.
    The world is indeed flat and there was never a moon landing.
    Bob

  2. #22
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    My old doctor was not impressed by patients asking for medicines by name. I did ask about one that was heavily advertised just to see what he thought. Said it was too expensive and I did not need it anyway. From the number of expensively produced prescription drug ads on TV there must be a lot of doctors who cave into patient pressure and write unneeded prescriptions just to get the patient out of their hair.
    When my wife worked in dentistry she said all patients who asked for medicines by name were drug addicts and were asking for narcotic pain killers. She said a very few times patients asked for pain killers because they needed them but they were not asking by brand name just for something to help the pain. She says normally they got a few days supply and came in to see what was wrong. Often a root canal or crown missed a root,. Not all teeth have the same number of roots in all people or even in then opposite side of the jaw on the same person. A tooth might have 3-5 roots that the textbook says has 4 roots. Some folks in their 70's have a third set of teeth come in just like losing baby teeth and getting "permanent" teeth again.
    A human has about 270 bones at birth and 207 as an adult. But easy to have 5-10 more or less then those numbers.
    Bil lD

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    What I want to know is how did trump get a prescription?Bill D
    Am I the only one that thinks he's lying about taking it?

    We'll remember come November.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nt1953 View Post
    First of all, you can make statistics prove or disprove anything you want. All it takes is using slanted data, or using the appropriate analysis technique.

    What the Lancet says is that there are patients that COVID-19 took the drug and patients that did not take the drug and that more died taking the drug than died without taking the drug. What it does not say is whether those that took the drug were so desperately ill that they were grabbing for any chance at living and that maybe those that did not take the drug and did not die were not so ill that last chance measures were used.

    I remember early on that there was a national TV news interview with some well known pandemic doctor that got the virus and was advised by his friends that were more knowledgeable about the virus to take the hydroxychloroquine. He took it and was getting better. I have not heard anything from him since. Now they are saying that you should not take the drug unless you are under care in a hospital! Rubbish! People all over the world are taking it every day for Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, malaria and other illnesses. Most live normal lives and are not in the hospital.

    All sides in this debate are lying. Look for the facts and make your own decisions.
    The Lancet paper is a statistical study of patients that were admitted to hospitals and diagnosed with Covid-19. Comorbidities were taken into account however no mention is made of the patient groups general health condition at the time that the drug therapy was begun. Since the data set is from a world wide geographic area, there is likely a very broad range of the patients general health condition at hospital admission. It is very likely many of these would be gravely ill at time of admission.

    Yes the paper is statistical research on a large group however there is a lot of context missing.

    Here is a link to New England Journal of Medicine:
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410
    This article is more clear and in my opinion does a better job of communicating the actual data with some context though a smaller sample.

    One thing I find interesting is that in the both article data sets, the drug therapies were continued to the end which was discharge or death.

    This is not how the anecdotal evidence cases were done. In those cases the therapy regime was usually 5-7 days.

    Here is a chart from the NEJM article that compares the therapy vs no therapy statistics.

    nejmoa2012410_f2.jpg

    It is interesting to note that the hydroxychloroquine does statistically do better in the 5-7 day range and then crosses over.

    From this it would appear that according to the statistics, the therapy should be done for the 5-7 days and then discontinued. The data suggests that if the hydroxychloroquine is going to help, it will be in the 5-7 day period. After that the it is likely that the heart toxicity issues start to become a bigger issue than the therapeutic benefits. Also at this time it is likely that intubation has begun and you are now in a dramatically statistically lower chance of survival.

    It should be noted that the early results of the Remdesivir are not as encouraging as first hoped for.

    What I find very concerning is that the OP and the media in general has latched onto the Lancet article as scientific proof that hydroxychloroquine should not be used. Ironically, I have observed a total lack of scientific objectivity in discussions such as this is even though people claim to follow the science.

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  8. #25
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    Am I the only one that thinks he's lying about taking it? ['/QUOTE]
    And this is where the shitheads of the OP and his ... (like minded thinkers) come together in their safe place.

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  10. #26
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    And just what the Flying Goddam Fuck does any of this have to do with professional machining?

    Serious question, and I'd like a serious answer.

    We can't talk about certain actual goddam machine tools, on a board specifically for machinists, simply because they're basically "not professional enough".

    But we CAN talk endlessly about bullshit political crap that has nothing whatsofuckingever to do with machining at all?!?

    Machinists can't talk about certain machine tools they actually use, on a machinists' board, but those same machinists, very few if any of whom are doctors or other medical personnel, CAN talk endlessly about a medical subject they only know about through poorly and inaccurately written news articles and Facebook feeds?

    Nope, we can't talk about Atlas lathes, or import 9x20s, or mill-drills, because that would seem "unprofessional", and might turn off some advertisers.

    But by golly, we can have fifteen simultaneous threads about which political party is reacting the worst to a viral outbreak, and which politician is lying more than the others, and which news source is the least trustworthy, all of which gets served with a healthy dose of "my party good, your party bad", which we all know is an unassailable argument that convinces every single reader how right, true, correct and massively endowed you are.

    This is a board for professional machinists.

    I come here to read and learn about professional machining.

    I don't give the rotting half of a diseased rat's ass what your opinion is on The Flu, China, the current administration, any previous administration, any given politician, or any combination thereof.

    Doc.

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  12. #27
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    from what I red, the early treatment plan in hospitals using hydroxychloroquine was to give it to patients who were starting to get worse (progressing from serious to severe/critical), they were using it sparingly, since they didn't know what number of patients to expect and there was a worry that they may run into shortages

    the mechanics behind it are that it, together with Zinc, will slow down replication rate of the virus, it doesn't kill existing virus, it only slows down replication rate, essentially buying some extra time for the body immune system to take care of the rest

    so if you start giving it to patients who are quite far gone, and who are already overwhelmed by virus replication, it has basically no chance of helping that person, and that was in essence the early course of hydroxychloroquine usage, now check that statistical study's data sample acquisition time period - Dec 2019 ~ Apr 2020, which is exactly is the time period where they were using hydroxychloroquine the wrong way - starting to give it to mostly critical cases

    there was another study which explicitly looked into this, and the results were very different, those who had been starting to take hydroxychloroquine+zinc+azithromycin immediately after confirming cov19 and being admitted to hospital recovered almost in half the time it took for others to recover who didn't take it, there were still deaths in that group, but overall it was undeniably a very noticeable improvement over the other group

    now, don't read into any of what I said and run to pharmacy to get those drugs and start using them as prophylactic, that is the biggest mistake you may do, and that is reason why YT is starting to take down videos discussing different treatment plans and analysis of these studies - basically they are censoring what you can see there, based on WHO recommendations, same WHO who royally screwed this whole deal up, and are very susceptible to political influence, including lobbying from organizations holding patents on very expensive antiviral drugs that are now proven to basically be useless against Cov19, yet still being pushed by the manufacturer

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post

    I don't give the rotting half of a diseased rat's ass what your opinion is on The Flu, China, the current administration, any previous administration, any given politician, or any combination thereof.

    Doc.
    Nice rant, Doc. By the way, I guess none of the effects from poor handling of the virus (there is a virus pandemic, or is that fantasy?)
    have affected the overall economy, and so the manufacturing sector, our shops, and our employment, right?

    So sure, Covid-19 is totally unrelated to OUR lives, right? And no point to addressing it, certainly not here, or anywhere. All the needless deaths, all the disruption due to poor planning and terrible handling of PPE production and stocks, well - nothing to do with us.

    I mean, by demographic we do trend towards the older fraction of the population, and many of us have comorbidities like being overweight, or have heart disease; or perhaps have limited or no insurance - but it's not a big deal, innit?

    No, I think this is a legitimate topic for the forum. Every one of us has been effected in some way by this event, and for the American members, by the brutally incompetent handling of the crisis by the DJT administration, and its constant lies along the way.

    If it bothers you so much, skip the topic - we didn't force you to read it.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Nice rant, Doc. By the way, I guess none of the effects from poor handling of the virus
    have affected the overall economy, and so the manufacturing sector, our shops, and our employment, right?
    -And just where in this thread, exactly, is the discussion of it affecting one's business?

    If it bothers you so much, skip the topic - we didn't force you to read it.
    -If talking about Atlas lathes, Grizzly 9x20s, and Rong-Fu mill-drills; you know, actual machine tools on a machinist board, bothers you so much, skip the topic. We're not forcing you to read it.

    How is that NOT hypocritical?

    Doc.

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    malaria medicine been around since before WW2 ?? and been used what on many many 100,000's of people ?? and is popular in France and other countries which why even with many millions of doses made there are still shortages. it does have side effects and so does aspirin which people OverDosed on in 1918 cause rumor said asprin works with the 1918 flu. long term side effects of malaria medicine some say are much worse and many say they dont go away as malaria medicine stays in the body (many military got it for malaria treatment of course over the decades)
    .
    at time Trump got millions of doses malaria medicine many were free doses from around world there was at the time not many else known medicines for treatments but now there are apparently other medicines maybe more effective. dont take much to see press criticizing Trump for at the time trying and getting what he thought and was told would help. and why would anybody criticize trying to get medicine for treatments, even if not very good medicine for corona virus. sure better medicines are known now but why is it a bad thing to try to help get millions of free doses to maybe help out when at the time there was not many other alternatives.
    .
    if you give aspirin to very sick people and they die does that mean aspirin caused them to die ? you could give water to somebody thats very sick and if they die did water cause them to die ?
    .
    I would worry more about long term side effects of Malaria medicine, some people have had problems for decades after taking it. of course it was better than having malaria untreated

  17. #31
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    Cue political punch up.

  18. #32
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    So any science that does not show the drug being successful is leftist science?
    And since all the real science is showing the drug to be useless or worse, then all science is leftist?

    got it

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  20. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post

    It is interesting to note that the hydroxychloroquine does statistically do better in the 5-7 day range and then crosses over.

    From this it would appear that according to the statistics, the therapy should be done for the 5-7 days and then discontinued. T
    No the data does not say that, you made that up, and if you do have a professional who says that, please to post it

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    "My old doctor was not impressed by patients asking for medicines by name."

    Precisely. I'm amazed at how people routinely tell me the names of drugs as if they're experts. Even the dosages. If I were a doctor, I'd kick a patient out of the office if he walked in telling me what drugs I should give him.


    As for our stunningly good President, what I wonder about is why anyone feels they have the right to pitch in on what he is or isn't taking. That's his personal business, no one else's. It's also his own business how he wipes his ass or how many times a day he takes a piss.

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  23. #35
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    High chance Marshmallow root would be good/Ok for some viruses...perhaps CV-19 but not tested yet.
    Marshmallow Root: Benefits, Side Effects, and More

    Soap bark tree has proved good for some illnesses.

    If one smelled like dog poop other people would stay 6 feet away so reducing close contact.

    If one got run over buy a big truck and smashed flat, there would be little chance of contacting any ill health.

    RE:
    1. One afternoon, a man went to his doctor and told him that he hasn’t been feeling well lately. The doctor examined the man, left the room, and came back with three different large bottles of pills. The doctor said, “Take the green pill with a big glass of water when you wake up. Take a blue pill with a big glass of water after you eat lunch. Then after dinner and just before going to bed, take the red pill with another big glass of water.” Startled to be put on so much medicine, the man stammered, “Doc, exactly what is my problem?” The doctor replied, “You’re not drinking enough water.”

  24. #36
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    "hydroxy associated with increased deaths", biggest bullshit yet.

    They gave Hydroxychloroquine to patients who were near death and 55% of them survived.

    Reports from all around the world showed great success when given earlier, preventing many patients from needing intubation.

    For those of you who buy into this shit tell your proxy that you want to refuse HC if you wind up in the ER in severe respiratory distress. As for me if I ended up in that situation I would want HC administered early. Patients do have certain rights re treatment options despite what the control freaks are trying to impose.

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  26. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    "hydroxy associated with increased deaths", biggest bullshit yet.

    They gave Hydroxychloroquine to patients who were near death and 55% of them survived.

    Reports from all around the world showed great success when given earlier, preventing many patients from needing intubation.

    For those of you who buy into this shit tell your proxy that you want to refuse HC if you wind up in the ER in severe respiratory distress. As for me if I ended up in that situation I would want HC administered early. Patients do have certain rights re treatment options despite what the control freaks are trying to impose.
    Lies lies and more lies

    the reports were non double blind test

    all double blind testing shows it does not work

    science is science

    if the science says it does not work, it does not work


    it is not a political statement, or a conspiracy

    it just does not work

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  28. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    just in the interest of all here who may be on the hydroxychloroquine or the chloroquine (or thinking about it), with or without the Azithro, there is a new study out in the Lancet today, a meta-analysis involving 18.000 patients on those, and 80,000 not taking them, and it looks like they correlate to roughly a doubling of your chance of dangerous hart problems and a higher chance of dying.

    dont think this is in any way some sort of "biased fake news", or that I'm "taking sides" I'm just trying to get some solid evidence out there to help all involved.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...180-6/fulltext

    we are all prone to wanting some "magic bullet", but sometimes, it just isn't magic at all, no matter who says it is, or how much we want it to be true. in this case, it actually can kill you.
    please be safe, and gesundheit
    I think you are dissing up another fight. I hope this thread is deleted when it turns toxic.

  29. #39
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    "science is science

    if the science says it does not work, it does not work"


    lol. That's the old days. Now, science is used to achieve whatever goal you set out to achieve. Thanks to science, we now know that there are 58 genders and we'll all be dead by 2012 from global warming.

  30. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    "science is science

    if the science says it does not work, it does not work"


    lol. That's the old days. Now, science is used to achieve whatever goal you set out to achieve. Thanks to science, we now know that there are 58 genders and we'll all be dead by 2012 from global warming.
    Uhh,no science is science


    and it does not work

    I would love it to work, but it does not

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