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  1. #61
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    What is considered an allowable lead level in your blood has changed a lot in the last 30 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    ....the invasion on our Southern Border ...
    Nah. Mexico paid for that wall. Go trump.

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    Docs machine:

    Looks like your objection is NOT to doing the work, but to doing it inefficiently. And, of course to spending the money. That's a problem all the time, with everything. Wherever there is money, there are scammers. Fix it, if you don't like it that much. It needs fixed.

    The point to doing the work now is that it has not gotten done yet, despite 50 years working on it while everyone foot-dragged, covered it up like Flint, and just kicked it down the road. The real problem with Flint was not even the chemical change etc, but the fact that in freaking 2020 or so there are still lead water pipes that have been known to be a problem for damn near 2000 years. And that they were tolerated mostly because of who lived there... people not considered important.

    How the hell long do you want to wait while the pipes etc poison people in ways that are not obvious but are still bad for society in general?

    Your problem is that you don't see a problem, nor how it works out in reality. If the lead or whatever made people wake up one day, get a knife or gun, and start killing everyone they saw, you might be all for fixing the pipes. Especially if it was your friends or family they killed.

    But because it only makes people stupid, only makes them more likely to be criminals, and affects mostly only people you do not have to (or maybe ever want to) see or deal with, it can be put off another 50 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Nah. Mexico paid for that wall. Go trump.
    Was reading a story about the juvenile tour guides who lead border-jumpers. (Checked to see that Janet Cooke didn't write it, luckily nope.) Apparently takes three or four minutes to climb over that superb wall. They even have lessons.

    Stupid thing did screw up life for an awful lot of animals tho. And killed a lot of hundred year old saguaros that are already having a hard time. The naturalists were freaking out when they bulldozed the desert to put that worthless pos up.

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    Most of these lead pipes run from the large main pipe in the street (which is not lead) across people's lawns, to the individual homes. Except for a short section in the street, most of the pipe is on private property. In most places, the homeowner is responsible for the cost of installing the line (even the part in the street) when the house is built, and the cost to replace the pipe when ever necessary.

    Its not a failure of the utility company, city, county, state, or the federal government. It is a failure of private homeowners to fix a potentially dangerous situation which has been well known for a very long time. Some just don't want to spend the $4,000+ as most of those pipes do not currently leech lead into the water because there is layer of built up scale between the water and the lead.They are like a land mine, not dangerous unless disturbed. Such disturbance could be by a change in water hardness, acidity or other factor that cause the lead to start leeching into the water.

    Ask yourself, are you the type that would spend $4,000+ to replace a lead service line if your water tested safe, or are you the type that would live with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    Ask yourself, are you the type that would spend $4,000+ to replace a lead service line if your water tested safe, or are you the type that would live with it?
    They could make it a condition of transferring the title. Not as quick but eventually would solve the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    ... It is a failure of private homeowners to fix a potentially dangerous situation which has been well known for a very long time.
    This thinking is just so hard to believe..

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    I had a water line from the meter (6+ feet deep and out at the street) to my house replaced back when I was in Indiana. Underground boring folks dug a hole by the meter pit, and shoved the new line through. When they went to hook it up they hopped down into the pit and eventually got a nice "thunk" with a shovel...and a shiny gray pipe glared back through the dirt. Sure enough it was lead from the main line to near the meter. Galvanized for a riser to bring the meter a bit higher, lead, then back to galvanized (now plastic) running to the house.
    Fortunately the city considered that part their responsibility. I don't know how they did it, but they came out, excavated it, replaced it, and put the dirt back in a couple hours because it was done by the time I checked in around lunch. Even got a new meter pit wall or I wouldn't have believed anything was done.
    I asked about the rest of the neighborhood and the response was "We don't know those are lead until someone happens to dig one up." Seemed a lot like sticking one's head in the sand, but this is the same town where the big 10 year utility project was adding separate sewers from storm drains so they wouldn't have to pay to run all the rain water through the sewage treatment plant. Not exactly the most modern system.
    Fortunately the water was pretty hard and liked to deposit things, so I suspect the lead was well coated. Still better to not be one water pH mistake from a mild dose of lead to the entire town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Looks like your objection is NOT to doing the work, but to doing it inefficiently.
    -Correct. And US Governmental omnibus bills like this are THE most inefficient use possible. I was not joking when I said maybe five percent will actually go to doing actual work.

    And, of course to spending the money.
    -Spending Government money, which we don't have, and already spend far too much of. Every administration is lambasted for adding so much to the deficit, and it's The Worst Thing Ever... until the next administration comes in, then it's okay because at least that nonexistent money is getting spent on what you want to spend it on.

    The Flint issue is Flint's problem, just as if my house had lead pipes in it, that would be my problem. Flint can't afford it? Neither can the US Government, really- they just have more power to borrow to do it, and suffer fewer consequences when that money is not paid back.

    It needs fixed.
    -I agree. We're only arguing about who has to pay for it.

    The point to doing the work now is that it has not gotten done yet, despite 50 years working on it while everyone foot-dragged, covered it up like Flint, and just kicked it down the road.
    -The issue, at its base, is one of scale. There's many miles of lead pipe in Flint, and to replace it means digging up many miles of roads, front yards, under existing buildings, through parking lots and so on, while crisscrossing thousands of phone lines, gas lines, sewer lines, fiberoptic, newer water lines, storm drains and so on.

    AND, doing so will block tens of thousands of commuters, adversely affect or even close out hundreds of small businesses, and have periods of weeks or even months where large sections of the city are without water at all- including for fire service- while certain key trunks get replaced.

    This is not impossible, but IS going to be fabulously expensive- Big Dig expensive- and short of mobilizing the entire country a'la WW2, will take decades.

    And years of either corrupt or spineless (or both) politicians in Michigan knew that. None of them had the political capital to even propose a decades-long project, let alone a potentially eleven-figure spending bill. The situation was tenable, as long as the water PH was kept in the right range, so yes, "kicking the can" was by far the easier and more popular choice.

    It may not have been the "right" choice, by some lights, but it works for a while there.

    Your problem is that you don't see a problem, nor how it works out in reality.
    -Oh, hardly. I not only see the problems, I have a decent grasp on the whole problem.

    The biggest problem here is that one cannot- cannot- simply roll in the bulldozers, dig up a few yards, and swap a few pipes. The problem is FAR larger and more complex than that. I figure- seat of the pants - that it'd take a good solid two years of research and analysis just to come up with a workable plan.

    And yes, I agree that the best time for them to have started was twenty years ago, or even more, if possible, but that's water under the proverbial bridge at this point. But right now, no matter what, this is not a case where Biden simply signs a $4 billion spending bill, Flint gets maybe $250K, and suddenly the problem is fixed. It's literally a case where not one dollar of that will improve a single person's water one iota. It will virtually all go for the aforementioned research and analysis, in two years the researchers will drop a proposal on whoever is Governor of Michigan at the time, said proposal will cost- at a start- $5 billion, with the inevitable bloating like the aforementioned Big Dig, and so that proposal will be quietly filed away in the disused lavatory downstairs in the room with the door that says "beware of the leopard", and somebody'll find $50K somewhere to hand out Brita pitchers to those with the worst households.

    Doc.

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    Not necessarily digging up....there are various product systems now that can install a liner into a pipe in situ .............and $4000.......where can I get cheap plumbing like that ?.....cost me $6000 to put in a few feet of rainwater drain........and that was with the special once only price for joining their "Homeowner plan"

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    I think the pipes are lead , not an alloy. I bought an old house in 1967 that had lead waste lines.
    I replaced the kitchen sink waste line with copper after renovating.
    I melted down the lead for sinkers. Wound up with a lifetime of various weight sinkers.
    mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    ...
    Ask yourself, are you the type that would spend $4,000+ to replace a lead service line if your water tested safe, or are you the type that would live with it?
    Well-spoken. In the case mentioned above, the building clearly had the yard excavated to replace the drain line which had obviously had various repairs over the years. Around here the water lateral is typically in the same originally-excavated trench, so they uncovered the entire length of 1" lead water pipe, and replaced that while it was open. I doubt the job was $4k as it was done in two days. But apparently the drain line was a non-negotiable issue, and the water line was 'might as well do that too while it's open.'

    The Flint mains are cast iron or steel I think, only the individual laterals are lead. Around here the old houses have vitrified clay pipes for drains to the street, never seen lead for that. 6" lead pipe would have been prohibitively expensive even in 1890.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    Well, we've all been taught that anything that comes from the Earth is good, and anything made by man is bad. That's why I spend lots extra for organic food and organic Q-Tips.

    But the idea that lead is 'leeching' into our water? Poppycock. First, that ignores a very basic fact - there isn't enough lead to make that much of a difference. That's hard, cold science and mathematics.

    Second, if a person were really worried about 'our water' (I personally do not own any water), he/she/Ellen would be FAR more concerned with all the shit people dump down their toilets and sinks that doesn't get filtered by the water providers. I had a guy who works for a major municipality tell me that there is a lot of hormones in public water they they don't/can't treat or filter.... it comes from female contraceptives and other drugs/products that people ingest and pee out.

    Emotional Science is the biggest thing to hit our country in our lifetimes. We take science, math, statistics then we add a big dose of emotion and that's what we now rely on.

    Lead, schmead.
    its called collective phychosis. mainly promoted by people making money on it. theres quite a few of these spooking around, global warming and electric cars beeing examples. suported by the need of people to believe, now that religion is gone.

    edit: ill add "... believe and live in fear". hell has been replaced by lead, co2 and not having the lates update on your electronic gadget.

    btw, now boron is bad as well? there are tremendous efforts going on to replace phosphorus by borate compounds.

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    I love how this thread brings out the liberal supremists...you can always spot them because A) they have an air of superiority and B) they don't believe anything, they only KNOW everything.


    So, let's wrap this up:


    1) Lead pipes are not the greatest, but they're hardly the death knell of our society. On the other hand, liberalism might well be....

    2) It's a good idea to replace lead pipes, but it's best to keep the government out of it...much like it's a good idea to keep the government out of most things.

    3) O'Biden's excuse that we need to place a heavy stone of debt around the necks of our grandkids in the name of replacing lead pipes is pure bullshit. It's a cover up for his true intent which is far more evil and stupid.

    4) The only thing sadder than O'Biden is an O'Biden apologist.

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  23. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    ..........................




    The Flint issue is Flint's problem, just as if my house had lead pipes in it, that would be my problem. Flint can't afford it? Neither can the US Government, really- they just have more power to borrow to do it, and suffer fewer consequences when that money is not paid back.



    -I agree. We're only arguing about who has to pay for it.



    -The issue, at its base, is one of scale. There's many miles of lead pipe in Flint, and to replace it means digging up many miles of roads, front yards, under existing buildings, through parking lots and so on, while crisscrossing thousands of phone lines, gas lines, sewer lines, fiberoptic, newer water lines, storm drains and so on.

    ..........
    This is not impossible, but IS going to be fabulously expensive- Big Dig expensive- and short of mobilizing the entire country a'la WW2, will take decades.

    ..............

    Doc.
    Funny how the excuses come out when the problem is in poor areas..... or in areas where people do not look like the folks who decide.

    As for the bulldozers....... NOT REQUIRED. The bulldozers are the most expensive way to handle the issue. But of course that gets trotted out when figuring costs.

    NO need to dig up everyone's water service. Leave it in place. Lead has been in the ground since the earth was formed.

    Mostly the mains are not lead, since soft pipe like lead works best for smaller pipes, but even if they were, I've seen the pipes replaced here by trenching along the side of the road, which stays open. The services are done by a form of directional drilling, with air pressure and a digging head on the end of the new pipe.... only needs a hole at each end of the run, and the digging head takes like 5 minutes to get from the street to the house, dragging the new pipe with it.

    Water service in the North has to be 5' or so down, less as you come south, so the digging at the ends is not hard. When I saw it done, it was pretty quick, which would mean cheap. The crews marched right up the block, doing many houses per day.

    If you are any sort of a conservative, one thing you would hate is the government harming citizens. This is a case of that, and it needs to be fixed ahead of many other things which are nuisances, but not killers.

    I suppose the other way to handle it is "personal responsibility"..... Simply tell the homeowners that the pipe is on their property, so it is their responsibility, and if they don;t like it, they can pay to replace it.

    That's a bit like dumping a load of pig shit in their front yard, and then asking them to remove "their" pig shit. Knock them to the ground, and ask them why they fell down, like back in 3rd grade. Nice conservative values there....

    Reality is that nobody had a choice of what pipe was used. Water service was a requirement, and as noted, lead pipes were often a government requirement. It's not the homeowner's responsibility to fix what the government forced on them.

    And, of course, since these problems still remain mostly in poor areas (the oldest, most run down part of town, often), asking the residents to fix their own (government required) lead pipes is just allowing the problem to go on for another generation or two. They don't have the money to fix what was imposed on them to begin with.

    What the government required, the government is responsible for. And needs to fix. If that means hanging an "out of service" sign on a bridge that needs replacement, so be it. Drive the long way around for a while, but fix what you messed up.

    To my thought, the government poisoning people by law, is something that should not be allowed. Perhaps your form of conservatism allows that. Mine does not. I see it as another government over-reach.

    Oh, yeah, that "you are a liberal" thing. Utter bullshit. You've got no idea how I vote, and I can guarantee you would be wrong if you guessed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post

    3) O'Biden's excuse that we need to place a heavy stone of debt around the necks of our grandkids in the name of replacing lead pipes is pure bullshit. It's a cover up for his true intent which is far more evil and stupid.
    The 2017 tax act put a $1.9 TRILLION “stone of debt around the necks of our grandkids” with absolutely NOTHING but the debt to show for it.

    At the very least the debt Biden is proposing is for infrastructure repairs will benefit of the country and future generations.




    Jeremy

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Funny how the excuses come out when the problem is in poor areas..... or in areas where people do not look like the folks who decide.
    -Please show me where I said one word about the income level or racial makeup of the area. My statement and opinion applies whether it's Flint, Chicago, Dallas, Portland, Fargo or Miami. City issues are the responsibility of the city, save in the case of natural disasters and the like.

    As for the bulldozers....... NOT REQUIRED.
    -Oh, for Pete's sake. You're reaching really hard to find things to argue about. You know full well that 'bulldozers' was a generic term for heavy equipment. You also know as well as I that yes, they'd have to use a good number of bulldozers- as well as excavators, backhoes, end loaders, dump trucks, drilling rigs, cranes, trucks, trailers, flatbeds, towed generators and compressors and a couple thousand Port-O-Potties.

    The services are done by a form of directional drilling, with air pressure and a digging head on the end of the new pipe....
    -Regardless of the method used, many, many miles of new pipe would have to be installed, and at least a fair chunk of the old has to be removed. You're deliberately ignoring the scale- how big is Flint? 100K people? That means probably 50K homes, and thousands of businesses. So bury many miles of new "trunk" lines and then connect thousands and thousands of homes and businesses. You think that can be done for a couple hundred bucks each?

    If you are any sort of a conservative, one thing you would hate is the government harming citizens.
    -The government didn't lay those pipes, the city did. The city is also the one that screwed up the water treatment that brought the problem back to the fore.

    In any case, that's not a factual argument, it's an emotional one- "won't somebody please think of the children!"

    The fact is, that either removing or bypassing the lead lines in Flint, alone- and you know as well as I that's not the only such affected city- will cost billions. It's Flint's issue, let Flint pay for it.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    ... best to keep the government out of it...much like it's a good idea to keep the government out of most things.
    ...
    Exactly, such as the public water supply for new york city, which was entirely concieived and funded by private enterprise.

    History of NYC’s Drinking Water

    Croton Aqueduct - Wikipedia

    New Croton Aqueduct - Wikipedia

    Catskill Aqueduct - Wikipedia


    Oh wait, I was wrong. The entire system was designed and paid for BY THE GOVERNMMENT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -The government didn't lay those pipes, the city did. The city is also the one that screwed up the water treatment that brought the problem back to the fore.
    .
    These are the pipes that run from your house to the street.
    The city or government did not put them in. The builder's contractor did.
    Bob

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    Even if true, at what point makes that the problem of the US Government? How does that make the problem significantly less expensive?

    Again, for those that can only see in left-vs.-right B&W: I fully, 100% agree it's an issue that needs to be addressed, and soon. But an omnibus spending bill as they're proposing is absolutely the most wasteful, least effective means of doing so.

    At absolute best, it's stage dressing- it's a campaign blurb. "I helped the citizens of Flint!" When in fact it did nothing of the kind.

    Out of that $4 billion bill, a few million might go to Flint, every dollar of which will go to consultants and other nest-padding. Not one dollar will go to improve one single citizen's water, one single iota. It'll be a total waste of billions, just so a politician will have something positive to say during his reelection campaign.

    I am by no means "anti-government". I am anti wasteful government, and this bill is, like most, waste on a massive scale.

    If the money has to be spent and some politician gets to crow about it, spend it properly. Actually work towards solving the problem, not throwing a campaign-poster band-aid over the gaping wound.

    Doc.


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