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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Nah. Mexico paid for that wall. Go trump.
    What wall? The wall was barely started. Would you send a bill to someone for work that was never completed?

    You folks won't let go on trump. Get over it. He's gone and may not return. Nothing that he said still applies.

    Enjoy your inflation and learning Spanish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    What wall? The wall was barely started. Would you send a bill to someone for work that was never completed?
    You would think a "brilliant" businessman like trump would have got a deposit.

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    Doc is assuming that the money will be 100% wasted. That is a central part of his argument. He could be partly correct, but I deny the ability of any government to be so good at wastage as to fail to get anything done.

    If the problem were in the rich area of any city, this conversation would not be occurring. It would get done because the lawyers etc would give the city etc no peace until it WAS done, damn the cost.

    But, since Flint is now a poor city, where even many streetlights were turned off or allowed to stay off when they failed, due to cost of repair and electricity, there is an argument about cost.

    Flint should pay? That's the same as saying don't bother, since there is not a hope of Flint being able to pay. Maybe back in the old more prosperous days, but not now.

    I hear that can rattling it's way down the road, punctuated by clanks as the boot hits it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    These are the pipes that run from your house to the street.
    The city or government did not put them in. The builder's contractor did.
    Bob
    And put them in to the specifications established by the city. Remind me again how that is the resident's fault now?

    Besides, we have Doc's word that all the main trunk lines will have to be pulled up and replaced..... The city had them put in.... so it's not just "the contractors" (who are all dead and gone).

    Sometimes "the folks who did it" have to step up and take responsibility. If they are not available, then it may fall to the government to fix the problem that government caused.

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    Politicians do have a cunning way of wasting money ,and getting Absolutely Nothing Done.....they call for expert reports ,consultant engineers planning,feasibility studies....wastage of several millions to a favoured group of professional carpetbaggers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Politicians do have a cunning way of wasting money ,and getting Absolutely Nothing Done.....
    Right, like the ENTIRE WATER SYSTEM FOR NEW YORK CITY. What a waste of money.

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    Doc is assuming that the money will be 100% wasted. That is a central part of his argument. He could be partly correct, but I deny the ability of any government to be so good at wastage as to fail to get anything done.
    -So, it's okay if the funds are only 80% wasted?

    My point is that giant omnibus bills like this are THE most inefficient way to handle a project like this. The vast majority, if not all, of the money is going to go to line the pockets of consultants, researchers and the occasional engineer. This will have to be done in each city- not just Flint- where such pipes are an issue, and at best will simply produce proposals on how to proceed.

    You can argue that the proposals will be necessary to start the work- and you'd be right- but then, after the stimulus funds, which were spent to produce the proposals, are gone, who's going to pay for the actual work?

    As I said, not one dollar of that bill, will go to actually improving one single citizen's water, one single iota.

    IE, wasted.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -So, it's okay if the funds are only 80% wasted?

    My point is that giant omnibus bills like this are THE most inefficient way to handle a project like this. The vast majority, if not all, of the money is going to go to line the pockets of consultants, researchers and the occasional engineer. This will have to be done in each city- not just Flint- where such pipes are an issue, and at best will simply produce proposals on how to proceed.

    You can argue that the proposals will be necessary to start the work- and you'd be right- but then, after the stimulus funds, which were spent to produce the proposals, are gone, who's going to pay for the actual work?

    As I said, not one dollar of that bill, will go to actually improving one single citizen's water, one single iota.

    IE, wasted.

    Doc.

    Well, that's an opinion, not a fact.

    If that were true all the time, we'd have no roads, highways, etc.

    Since we do, it is clearly a gross exaggeration to suggest that not one dollar will go to doing any actual work.

    And. yes, at some point someone needs to figure out the best way to actually do the work. I put my suggestion out there, I've seen that done. It worked. Maybe it is not the best or even cheapest good solution. I'm not a civil engineer, so those who are may have better ideas.

    As for paying, as I said, defer something else so that the money is available. It's that sort of important, really. Remember, a change to the water source and treatment made a big difference in Flint. It does not take much of a screw-up to literally mess with a lot of people's minds.

    As for people not wanting to spend $4000. First, where does that number come from? What procedure costs $4000 to replace the line?

    Then also, in Flint, and other places, many residents don't HAVE the $4000 if it were to cost that much. It ain't a "don't wanna", it's a "got no way to do that".

    But that cost is far above what is reasonable. The gas company is replacing some copper customer lines here.... and NOT CHARGING the customers. According to some of you-all, there should be huge bills sent in.

    But, they manage to replace the line without costing that much, no trenching, all done in a day. Maybe they know something you do not know. Same procedure I saw years ago.

    So many assumptions made to justify doing nothing or kicking the can. It's astounding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    As for paying, as I said, defer something else so that the money is available.
    Could skip buildng a few littoral combat ships that are so fucked up they can't put out to sea anyhow. Would save berth fees on them, too. That alone would probably pay for three neighborhoods a month.

    Or sell one B-52 for scrap. Their time has passed.

    But if it's just the 1" lines from the street to the house, I really don't see a problem ? Couple hours with a shovel and $200 worth of stuff from Lowe's should fix this ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Could skip buildng a few littoral combat ships that are so fucked up they can't put out to sea anyhow. Would save berth fees on them, too. That alone would probably pay for three neighborhoods a month.

    Or sell one B-52 for scrap. Their time has passed.

    But if it's just the 1" lines from the street to the house, I really don't see a problem ? Couple hours with a shovel and $200 worth of stuff from Lowe's should fix this ?
    B-52’s still work… and WELL. I’d much rather see the barely flying F-35 program scrapped instead. Better even still would be the federal government making an attempt to recoup the money spent on non-flying F-35’s. Any other contractor would be back-charged into nonexistence after spending so much with so much nothing to show for it.

    One of the few places where American conservatives and liberals can find common ground these days is in the fear of China. China has taken a page from America’s early 20th century playbook and made massive investments, often on “borrowed” money.

    Instead of pissing away trillions in failed “nation-building” exercises they’ve spent that money (and far more) internally.

    The assumption that government spending is inherently wasteful has been proven wrong time and again historically, in this country and abroad. Especially when viewed through the lens of massive infrastructure projects. The bulk of the money gets spent on materials, which create jobs in steel mills, in concrete plants, lumber mills, etc… equipment manufacturers get more and larger orders… and ultimately the payrolls of thousands of individual contractors and employees. Taxes are paid locally and at the state and federal level at each step of the way.

    It’s been proven that every dollar invested in the IRS nets seven dollars in return to government coffers. Additionally, greater investment in the IRS means a greater ability for that outfit to prosecute the big money shirkers…

    It’s difficult to appreciate all of the abstractions of “growth” provided by government infrastructure spending.






    Jeremy

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    The worst thing about china is that they got the rest of the world to pay for most all that internal work. The US was a large piece of that.

    I have read that "china" owes a lot of money to companies in Australia. I don't know how true that is, nor how likely that is to be paid.

    china did have a lot of help from "a huge international retail company" that saw an opportunity to make a ton of money, and did not care who they screwed to get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Could skip buildng a few littoral combat ships that are so fucked up they can't put out to sea anyhow. Would save berth fees on them, too. That alone would probably pay for three neighborhoods a month.

    Or sell one B-52 for scrap. Their time has passed.

    But if it's just the 1" lines from the street to the house, I really don't see a problem ? Couple hours with a shovel and $200 worth of stuff from Lowe's should fix this ?
    Well, fellow PMers, it seems the Chineeee are afraid those littoral combat ships will be a real problem for them after the bugs are worked out. And they are right.

    And the B-52 is still a very capable bomb deliverer and with modern upgrades and EWF support is something they are also worried about.

    And only a totally ignorant person (such as one trained in Chineeee schools) wouldn't understand that most USA water supply lines are at least 9 feet down and require notification of DigSafe, an on-sight city inspector when the meter is hooked up, a licensed contractor to make the hookups, and we (those damn fool Yankee imperialists) have new and improved ways of replacing pipes that don't require all that digging.

    Course as we all know labor is cheap in Chiina and they don't have the same safety standards we do.

  18. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Vegvary View Post
    Joe Biden recently stated that we need to get rid of lead pipes. ....
    N T P M T D

    (Non Technical People Making Technical Decisions)

    ----Doozer

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    ....

    But that cost is far above what is reasonable. The gas company is replacing some copper customer lines here.... and NOT CHARGING the customers. According to some of you-all, there should be huge bills sent in.
    Strange thing happen to me.
    Old gas meter leaking. Gas company wants to replace the meter and line to street since it is old.
    I warn them that they are on the tail end of my septic. They dig and dig can't find the line and hit black water.
    Call out a supervisor and he says fill it back in and change the meter.
    I ask what is going on.
    Seems that if they replace the line all work and materials are paid for by a federal program. If they replace only the meter it is on their dime.

    I do not disagree with my tax dollars going for fixing things like lead pipes but sometimes such makes for silly decisions.
    People do not understand what happened in Flint. It was not about the lead in one's water. It was about muddy, rusty, yuck water out of the facet.
    Flint never even ranked in the top ten areas of the USA for high lead blood levels.

    As far as some shovels and a few hours this is a 4-5 foot deep trench (frostline). Under sidewalks and driveways, 40 to 60 year old trees in every yard.
    Base problem that someone thought adding less chemicals to your water supply was a good idea.
    Turns out a city needs all kinds of things added to nice clean water as you supply it.
    Around the country I know of people who will not drink "city" water because of all the additives.
    There are growers who sink wells as this water is seen as not so good for plants.

    I support it and it will be pennies to me. If nothing else it provides money and jobs for people who want to get in and do the work.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    S... what happened in Flint. It was not about the lead in one's water....
    Bob
    Factually incorrect. AKA wrong.
    Water source was changed to less expensive one. Chemicals to prevent leak from leaching were discontinued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Factually incorrect. AKA wrong.
    Water source was changed to less expensive one. Chemicals to prevent leak from leaching were discontinued.
    Jim I love you but pray tell how long you and your family have lived in Flint. We have only been here since the 1930s.
    Lots of people around the US think they know Flint from this news. They know shit about my lifelong hometown.

    Yes this change to less treated water a huge problem.
    First noted that I knew of in the GM plants before any of this became any news.
    It seems a big city has to have a main and a backup water supply. Now we are building a new line up north a bit at large cost but now in violation and Detroit is the single source.
    The question remains is to adding more chemicals to my drinking water good?
    It is good for the pipes in the ground.....is it good for me?
    For a very long time leaded gasoline was thought just fine. What is the next one?
    Now Flint has Detroit water so recoating the pipes and the muddy water gone. With this clean to sight some homeowners do not want their yard or trees destroyed.

    Flint lost huge as AC and Buick went away. This loss of revenue insane large. Yes corners where cut in this.
    I can see truly a logic to bulldoze under this old town and try again.

    I admit my views are very biased as I am a Flintiod.
    Wonder how much was a doctor making a name and famous. The paycheck off this fame I think not small but it could have been real concern so one does not know.
    Bob

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    Worth considering that if you mess with lead pipes you damage or remove the passivation. If you have to replace a piece it's generally in the best interest of the public to redo the run.

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    If the money is there, some one will get a coating process up and running.

    Shut down a street, pump in some plastic sealer, go to each house and run the main tap until material comes out clean.

    Let harden/cure, and turn the water back on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    If the money is there, some one will get a coating process up and running.

    In Flint?


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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    If the money is there, some one will get a coating process up and running.

    Shut down a street, pump in some plastic sealer, go to each house and run the main tap until material comes out clean.

    Let harden/cure, and turn the water back on.
    That's not how they do it. Our municipality had their water mains and sewer mains relined a couple years ago by a Vermont based outfit. Purpose was to prevent leaks that waste water or allow stormwater infiltration into sanitary sewer system.

    They bypass the water mains and advise homeowners not to use toilets etc. (they suggest you leave for a few hours) and then steam clean the insides and then roll in (with compressed air) an inside out plastic film tube coated with heat cure resin. Then they pipe in more steam which cures the resin. A remote unit then goes in and cuts out all the access points to houses and buildings. Really slick stuff and saved a fortune over dig and replace.

    For both water lines to houses and sewer lines from houses they can be replaced by pipe bursting. The attach a special head to a cable and pull it through the old pipe with a hydraulic ram. The head splits the pipe and pulls new line (copper tubing, plastic, or sections of PVC sewer pipe into the space where the old pipe was. Make connections at both ends and voila, a new line with minimal digging (a pit near the street connection and one in the basement if the sewer is below floor grade (most are, but only 18" or so).

    The bursting heads can split old copper or steel water lines, and the larger ones can split cast iron or clay sewer pipes. They can also for short runs pull the old tubing or pipe out while pulling new line into place without bursting. That's how our old steel water line going from the sidewalk to the water main under the street was done a while back. There is a curb valve under the sidewalk where connections are made via compression fittings. Only two small pits had to be excavated.

    This is the 21st century. Technology has changed how we do things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    That's not how they do it. Our municipality had their water mains and sewer mains relined a couple years ago by a Vermont based outfit. Purpose was to prevent leaks that waste water or allow stormwater infiltration into sanitary sewer system.

    They bypass the water mains and advise homeowners not to use toilets etc. (they suggest you leave for a few hours) and then steam clean the insides and then roll in (with compressed air) an inside out plastic film tube coated with heat cure resin. Then they pipe in more steam which cures the resin. A remote unit then goes in and cuts out all the access points to houses and buildings. Really slick stuff and saved a fortune over dig and replace.

    For both water lines to houses and sewer lines from houses they can be replaced by pipe bursting. The attach a special head to a cable and pull it through the old pipe with a hydraulic ram. The head splits the pipe and pulls new line (copper tubing, plastic, or sections of PVC sewer pipe into the space where the old pipe was. Make connections at both ends and voila, a new line with minimal digging (a pit near the street connection and one in the basement if the sewer is below floor grade (most are, but only 18" or so).

    The bursting heads can split old copper or steel water lines, and the larger ones can split cast iron or clay sewer pipes. They can also for short runs pull the old tubing or pipe out while pulling new line into place without bursting. That's how our old steel water line going from the sidewalk to the water main under the street was done a while back. There is a curb valve under the sidewalk where connections are made via compression fittings. Only two small pits had to be excavated.

    This is the 21st century. Technology has changed how we do things.
    Yes, I know all about that process, and it's limitations.

    Hence I did NOT suggest it, rather someone would develop a coating, without all the problems and cost's with the above system.


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