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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is considered an allowable lead level in your blood has changed a lot in the last 30 years.
    This is a good thing, right?

    I saw some pretty impressive studies that showed the link between lead levels and negative societal outcomes associated with IQ drops. They controlled for all the expected factors like income, race, education, govt. benefits, etc. I think the sources were mostly from gasoline, next paint, maybe pipes were the smallest source. Basically found no threshold level that was ok - just ever decreasing impact with less lead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yes, I know all about that process, and it's limitations.

    Hence I did NOT suggest it, rather someone would develop a coating, without all the problems and cost's with the above system.
    I think the most practical coating would be a passivation layer, which the water treatment plants add extra goodies to maintain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    it seems the Chineeee are afraid those littoral combat ships will be a real problem for them after the bugs are worked out.
    Yeah, that'll be In the Year 2525, if man is still alive. If woman can survive ....

    And the B-52 is still a very capable bomb deliverer and with modern upgrades and EWF support is something they are also worried about.
    Every day we set aside an hour to worry about that. Usually between 3 and 4 a.m. so it doesn't interrupt anything important.

    And only a totally ignorant person (such as one trained in Chineeee schools) wouldn't understand that most USA water supply lines are at least 9 feet down
    You went to school in China ? There's not a single water line on the west coast that's nine feet down. Even in Flint, Bob (a person who actually lives there) says they are 4 to 5 feet down. In Anchorage they were less than that. We didn't want to hit the permafrost.

    require notification of DigSafe, an on-sight city inspector when the meter is hooked up, a licensed contractor to make the hookups, and we (those damn fool Yankee imperialists) have new and improved ways of replacing pipes that don't require all that digging.
    Might be part of the reason why the US has priced itself out of the world's competition. One guy at 40k/year and a 4 cylinder Ranger could do all the sensible construction checks, and cost $100 per site. You guys are wacked.

    Course as we all know labor is cheap in Chiina and they don't have the same safety standards we do.
    Actually, hand digging was my option for people who could not afford to have a contractor do it. If it's a requirement for title transfer and one is too poor to pay a drilling service, there's always the shovel option. 4' deep by fifty feet long is not the end of the world even for a poor person. Done it myself, in fact. Younger then though, would take longer now.

    Oh well.

    I just don't see this thing being an insoluble problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strostkovy View Post
    I think the most practical coating would be a passivation layer, which the water treatment plants add extra goodies to maintain
    And that, no matter how much anyone 'loves me to death' is one of the reason Flint happened. They stopped the passivation to save money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yes, I know all about that process, and it's limitations.

    Hence I did NOT suggest it, rather someone would develop a coating, without all the problems and cost's with the above system.

    I've had the pipes lined here. Not cheap, although a bit cheaper than digging up the pipes, which were in fact 9 feet down, and ran under a couple trees. The drains, NOT the water supply pipes, which are in fact about 4-5 feet down.

    I had them lined from the back corner of the house, where stack #2 is, all the way to the "yard trap" * at the front of the yard near the street.

    Quotes were 9 grand to bust up the basement floor all across the basement to the front wall. More than that to cut down the two trees, and then dig down 9 feet to the pipes to replace them manually.

    Lining saved a few grand. Process was kinda as described above, but it does NOT use a "plastic film". The actual process used a tube made of a kind of fiberglass (possibly polymer fiber) felt.

    It was blown into the old pipe, after that was cleared and cleaned. As it goes in, inside out, it goes through a device that saturates it with resin. The result is about as thick as plastic DWV pipe. When it is all in, some long hot-dog-shaped "balloons" were put through, and steam circulated to "kick off" the reaction that hardens the resin. All done in a day.

    The expense makes it impractical as a standard process, best used when digging is impractically expensive, or when pipes are otherwise inaccessible. Also that process is impractical for small pipes, like under 2". The 4" and 6" are not an issue. 3" is iffy, and 2" just not worth it unless really forced.

    For water pipes, there is a sprayed epoxy type lining process. Also not cheap, and best when you cannot get to the pipe to replace it in a practical manner.

    I think bursting, or the "digger head" system are more practical, less expensive, and faster. With those, a block's worth of houses can be done in one day by a small crew. I've seen it done.

    The local gas company moved our meter outside, by my request (it was in the way, and also leaky, always stank of gas). That involved digging, and laying a portion of new pipe. They only charged about $400. Not too bad at all. Gas was about as far down as the water.

    * The yard trap is required because the house is old enough that the downspouts go into the sewer. Trap prevents sewer gas coming out of the downspout connections etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Y.........................
    Actually, hand digging was my option for people who could not afford to have a contractor do it. If it's a requirement for title transfer and one is too poor to pay a drilling service, there's always the shovel option. 4' deep by fifty feet long is not the end of the world even for a poor person. Done it myself, in fact. Younger then though, would take longer now.

    Oh well.

    I just don't see this thing being an insoluble problem.
    problem with folks in cities doing it themselves (and even unincorporated County areas if the County pays attention) is the usual requirement that all plumbing be done by qualified plumbers, to code.

    There will be all sorts of issues otherwise. The folks who will prefer to do it themselves are usually poor people. Poor people are typically also much less educated, so doing it right, to code, is an issue, and the city does not want to be in the business of educating hundreds of people on doing it right.

    So the city says "you can't do this yourself". That brings us squarely back to the issue of costs, and the need to do the job "without the bulldozers".

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    problem with folks in cities doing it themselves (and even unincorporated County areas if the County pays attention) is the usual requirement that all plumbing be done by qualified plumbers, to code.
    More of the reason why the US will never again be competitive at anything. It's a fucking hole in the ground, a foot wide and four or five feet deep(much less in places that don't freeze). Some galvanized water pipe, or plastic in places that approve of that. Fifteen minutes to inspect, one piece of paper to give proper instructions. It's not magic. It's a fucking trench with a pipe in it.

    If the people of the country can't manage that, then they are too stupid to exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST
    The actual process used a tube made of a kind of fiberglass (possibly polymer fiber) felt.
    Had some work done here recently, they offered both woven fibreglass mat and felt, the latter is cheaper. Seems like the Danes have cornered the market here



    the robotic cutter heads and the rubber "bladders" they use seem to run thousands.

    Haven't seen lead here, by early 20th century it was all gal pipe instead. The mention of burying 9ft down, hell, that's an unknown concept in this generally temperate climate, 1 ft maybe, unless exposed to vehicle weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by JST
    The local gas company moved our meter outside, by my request (it was in the way, and also leaky, always stank of gas). That involved digging, and laying a portion of new pipe. They only charged about $400. Not too bad at all. Gas was about as far down as the water.
    They relined all the old 1 1/2~2" steel gas pipe here with a yellow pvc pipe about 15 or 20 years ago. That's one area where lead pipe was common....above ground connection to meters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    I can’t either. What I can see is a president who doesn’t quite even know where he is a a news media that doesn’t even know what lead is.

    I’ve been in and worked in very many old buildings and only ever saw lead used in drains.


    It was quite common.

    Of course like steam heat, it is probably one of those things that you see in some places and not in others depending on when the housing stock was built.

    I think it is mostly the underground pipes that are lead

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    More of the reason why the US will never again be competitive at anything. It's a fucking hole in the ground, a foot wide and four or five feet deep(much less in places that don't freeze). Some galvanized water pipe, or plastic in places that approve of that. Fifteen minutes to inspect, one piece of paper to give proper instructions. It's not magic. It's a fucking trench with a pipe in it.

    If the people of the country can't manage that, then they are too stupid to exist.
    It not just a " F**king trench with a pipe in it", that pipe often runs under part of the street, under the sidewalk, under a driveway, and some times comes up in the middle of a finished basement. Ever dig a large trench??? I doubt it. If you have you would know that the loose dirt that comes out takes up about 1.5 times the volume of the old compacted dirt. It has to go somewhere. Also you may have multiple huge trees and their root system to deal with. This is not a simple F**king trench in most cases. Don't post if you have not thought things out.

    As for the guy who made the silly remark about anyone being able to dig it up with a shovel, that is maybe possible for a young health male, but what about the elderly on social security just scraping by??? The 80 year old widow is not digging down five feet with a shovel. For that matter neither is the average housewife with a couple of kids.

    You guys need to sit and think about all possible scenarios before you clutter up the forum with nonsense.

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    I have seen buried electric cables in a lead casing. Similar to romex but the outer jacket is lead not plastic. This was the supply line to a shooting range built around 1930-45.
    Bill D

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    JST is indeed correct that it is a fiberglass tube rather than a plastic film. I didn't get too close a look at the municipal work and the plastic material was the bladder they inflate to push the uncured tube against the pipe wall before curing.

    As he said, not a cheap system but much faster and cheaper than digging and it saved our municipality considerable money and avoided repaving the entire street afterwards. Our main pipes (water, sewer, gas) all run under paved roads.

    And what the "shovel guy", who mostly shovels shit at us dumb 'Melicans, fails to understand is you don't just dig up underground services with unskilled help. Requires a permit from the city, which is only issued after proof all utilities are notified and approve, a licensed plumber, and in the case of connections to the mains a city water/sewer crew and an inspector. All trenches must be lined with sand before pipes are laid and more sand goes over the top before backfilling.

    This ain't a third world country like the pig with lipstick he lives in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    .
    * The yard trap is required because the house is old enough that the downspouts go into the sewer. Trap prevents sewer gas coming out of the downspout connections etc.
    ....
    In peekskill that's an illegal connection, they require those old houses like mine, with the pipe where the rainwater used to go, be be capped off. At this point we have separate
    drain systems for rainwater and sanitary lines. Goal is to keep the treatment plants from being overloaded during rainstorms, and there are practically zero cross-connections in the
    city now.

    At one time they were putting smoke into the sanitary lines to see which houses had plumes of smoke coming out of the gutters...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    In peekskill that's an illegal connection, they require those old houses like mine, with the pipe where the rainwater used to go, be be capped off. At this point we have separate
    drain systems for rainwater and sanitary lines. Goal is to keep the treatment plants from being overloaded during rainstorms, and there are practically zero cross-connections in the
    city now.

    At one time they were putting smoke into the sanitary lines to see which houses had plumes of smoke coming out of the gutters...

    The yard trap would stop the smoke. That's what it's for... to stop gases from the sewer.

    They want to change that here as well. But they have not done it completely. Probably have done only 1% so far. And the yard traps would not be dug up, the downspout connections would just be capped off and downspouts re-directed (usually to the most inconvenient place possible, based on the areas where it has been already done).

    The sewers have far larger issues of flooding as well as overflow outlets that lead to contamination of creeks even without stormwater, that must be solved first. They are busy building supplementary tunnels, and various types of holding tanks, etc. That will likely be lower cost and more effective overall.

    My plan is to cap the connections, and replace with a buried pipe to a "pop-up" out in the yard. That avoids the 8 foot leaning downspouts used to get the water away from the house. Those get in the way of mowing, etc. A couple downspouts will need to be moved to avoid jackhammering walks and patios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    In peekskill that's an illegal connection, they require those old houses like mine, with the pipe where the rainwater used to go, be be capped off. At this point we have separate
    drain systems for rainwater and sanitary lines. Goal is to keep the treatment plants from being overloaded during rainstorms, and there are practically zero cross-connections in the
    city now.

    At one time they were putting smoke into the sanitary lines to see which houses had plumes of smoke coming out of the gutters...
    That was the main reason for relining the sanitary mains. Cracks were allowing storm water infiltration and the MWRA charges the city based on the amount of outflow to the treatment plant. The cost of the lining is expected to pay for itself in only a few years through sewerage charge savings.

    They also tried the smoke trick here but the main purpose was to see how much smoke came out of the municipal storm drains.

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    I have read that in Ancient Rome they complained that when they dug up the water pipes in the city they found all sorts of illegal connections not shown on the plans. I bet it is 2000 years worse by now.
    Bill D

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    The yard trap would stop the smoke. That's what it's for... to stop gases from the sewer.

    They want to change that here as well. But they have not done it completely. Probably have done only 1% so far. And the yard traps would not be dug up, the downspout connections would just be capped off and downspouts re-directed (usually to the most inconvenient place possible, based on the areas where it has been already done).

    The sewers have far larger issues of flooding as well as overflow outlets that lead to contamination of creeks even without stormwater, that must be solved first. They are busy building supplementary tunnels, and various types of holding tanks, etc. That will likely be lower cost and more effective overall.

    My plan is to cap the connections, and replace with a buried pipe to a "pop-up" out in the yard. That avoids the 8 foot leaning downspouts used to get the water away from the house. Those get in the way of mowing, etc. A couple downspouts will need to be moved to avoid jackhammering walks and patios.
    Our house has no house trap and no other trap to the street on that line. It was plumbed in by the original owner who was a plumber, around 1895. We've never had any problem with sewer gas coming into the house, interestingly. If you bury the downspout lead-out, be careful it is deep enough to not freeze during the winter. The folks we bought the house from had done that, buried the downspout drain in the yard out to the street, where it froze one february, and then there was a large rainstorm. The leader going into the underground pipe turned into a large fountain depositing the water right by the corner of the house.

    These days I just have black flex pipe laid above ground that goes out to the street. In the winter as long as I keep it exposed the sun prevents any freezing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    It not just a " F**king trench with a pipe in it",
    Yes it is. You're squirming like a little girl over a goddamned cut in the ground. And yes, I have dug trenches for pipes and electric and even a fishpond. The fishpond was kinda hard work.

    It doesn't take much brains to lay your beloved sand in the bottom, either. You're being silly.

    And if you're 80 and can't do it, as I said, just make it a prerequisite for transferring the title. New owner can do it himself if he's poor or have a contractor do it if he's not.

    The US existed, with sewers and gas pipes and water pipes, long before there were excavators or cool steerable underground drills.

    Tree roots ! Tree roots ! Whatever shall I do ?

    Maybe hire a Mexican if you are too stupid to do it yourself.

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    It really isn't fair to compare replacing water lines with gas lines; gas doesn't freeze, so the lines can be shallow, Around here they put polyethylene tubing in with a plow and only need to dig to connect with the main, which isn't all that deep, either.

    In Chicago, typically the water mains are 7' to 9' deep, well below the frost line, placed that deep, I suspect, to keep them well clear of the other utilities, and of utility companies setting poles. Before the days of electronic metal detectors, locating buried utility lines was pretty much 'by guess and by gosh'. These days to have a man work in a seven foot deep excavation requires a trench shield, and that requires heavy equipment to place and remove.

    Typical Chicago installation has a shut-off valve right at the edge of the street ROW, so the city can shut the water off for non payment without actually entering private property. This is going to complicate pipe bursting and require a second excavation to replace the shut-off. At the building end, common practice was to run the line entirely UNDER the foundation footer and bring it up through the concrete floor inside the foundation wall. This too will complicate pipe bursting.

    The easiest option by far is to just maintain the water chemistry.

    Dennis

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    If it was deemed necessary to replace all pipes, wouldn't it just be easier to dig new trenches where current infrastructure allows and leave the existing stuff? I'd imagine it's passivated enough on the outside not to be an issue to ground water, hopefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by APD View Post
    So if it is naturally occurring, its not toxic?
    They said that about asbestos back in the day.

    Regards Tyrone.


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