OT:Are most knife/blade makers knuckleheads?

david n · Dec 19, 2018

OT:Are most YT knife/blade makers knuckleheads?

So this is more of a rant than anything.......................lock if need be.

So I'm not metallurgist. Far from it. But I at least know that hardening metal is a science. What material, cross section, temp, soak time, quench, temper are all important to get anything close to good results. I watch these some of these knuckle heads on YT and just shake my head, They will take any old piece of scrap(old wrenches, bumper off a 57' Chev, big bolts, railroad spikes, circular saw blades, ball bearings, any old steel chips, nails, screws, files, hammers) and heat it to cherry, smack it into shape of a knife(it seems that's all they know how to make), then they "harden" it. Get it glowing hot and dunk in a big ol' can of motor oil. That'll do it. :rolleyes5:

I must be the moron. I didn't know that every type of steel know to man is oil hardening.......huh. Who knew?

MattiJ · Dec 19, 2018

Well its more "arts" than mass production if you make knives out of old railroad spikes and wrenches.

Besides most of the steel that is any good for knives is oil hardening in small cross-sections like knife blade.
If cherry red and oil hardening doesn't work then you just scrap the part. Only ball bearings and files are any good on your list.

gbent · Dec 19, 2018

Why do you use YT videos as an example of all knifemakers? Do machining videos accurately portray machinists?

As far as hardening is concerned, there is much outdated and incorrect metallurgy lore in blacksmithing. But the behavior of the steel at the cutting edge is not an exact science. The mass effect of a thin piece of steel with an even thinner edge is small enough that even W series steels can be air quenched sometimes.

I have not yet found a serious heat treating text that discusses the differential tempering that is essential to a good knife.

DrHook · Dec 19, 2018

I figured out years ago with "OCC" and "West Coast Choppers" that one cannot confuse reality with "reality TV". Two completely different animals...

Milland · Dec 19, 2018

It's also possible to take a (potentially) good steel and burn off the carbon though improper heating prior to quench, therefore damaging the hardness potential of the edge.

I think Aaron Gough works from pre-hardened steels. Any comment, Aaron?

9100 · Dec 19, 2018

gbent said:
Why do you use YT videos as an example of all knifemakers? Do machining videos accurately portray machinists?

As far as hardening is concerned, there is much outdated and incorrect metallurgy lore in blacksmithing. But the behavior of the steel at the cutting edge is not an exact science. The mass effect of a thin piece of steel with an even thinner edge is small enough that even W series steels can be air quenched sometimes.

I have not yet found a serious heat treating text that discusses the differential tempering that is essential to a good knife.

I made a die to stamp out a limited number of blanks for custom dials on the old GE 4 1/2" switchboard meters. I just had to cut out a few hundred pieces of thin soft aluminum. I turned pieces of 1020 steel and hardened the cutting edges by holding a hot acetylene torch flame on them while rotating. As soon as the sharp corner got red, I let it cool in air, mostly heat sinked by the mass of metal behind it. Punched out all my parts and is still quite useable in case the need arises again.

There is a local blacksmith who makes alleged knives and hatchets from things like railroad spikes. If I made anything like them, it would never see the light of day, simply because I would never have it represent my workmanship.

Bill

PS, I rarely watch these U Tubes because most of them are in love with their own voices. They drone on and on, going over every detail of a simple operation, them repeat. Besides, most don't know what they are doing and their advice is poor. I remember one about winding coil springs who didn't have sense enough to set up a lathe feed to get an even pitch or to stress relieve it afterwards. They put this nonsense out as wisdom.

david n · Dec 19, 2018

Milland said:
I think Aaron Gough works from pre-hardened steels. Any comment, Aaron?

Aaron knows his stuff..............but lots of iron beaters just wing it. I'm sure their knives harden, but it would be a compete crap shoot.............

blcksmth · Dec 19, 2018

I have watched bits and pieces of a few of the TV shows on forging. They usually show the quench part of the heat treat process. Occasionally the tempering process is mentioned but I have never seen it shown. Why? It is not a dramatic process and does not make good television. Also for a knife it can take a long time to make the edge hard and the rest of the blade tougher.

They seem to always make some sort of ugly, in my opinion, edged weapon which concerns me more than a little because I suspect that part of their audience are young impressionable minds. The modern day blacksmiths do so much more than these shows demonstrate.

I will admit that these shows have sparked a renewed interest among younger folks in the blacksmith craft. Our local blacksmith group "Northwest Ohio Blacksmiths" - - NOB - Home - has gained over a dozen new members in the last couple of years and a fair share of them mentioned these shows and have a desire to make knives. Most members of our group are hobby smiths but a few are professional smiths and some make some very nice knives. Others make some beautiful and useful tools and decorative items.

Bob
WB8NQW

M.B. Naegle · Dec 19, 2018

I'm all for this DIY/hands-on experience that this new wave of "knife-makers" are after, but I don't see the draw of using ANYTHING to make a knife. It used to be that an old farmer worked with what he had because that's all he had, but it seems that so many of these guys forget that a lot more is available these days. Granted, you can get some really cool effects forging a couple tin can's into a christmas elves long-sword, but If I was going to make a blade (and I'm the practical type that would actually want to regularly use it, so shelf stuff is of no interest to me), I think I'd start with a decent material. What do I know...

rke[pler · Dec 19, 2018

MattiJ said:
Well its more "arts" than mass production if you make knives out of old railroad spikes and wrenches.

Besides most of the steel that is any good for knives is oil hardening in small cross-sections like knife blade.
If cherry red and oil hardening doesn't work then you just scrap the part. Only ball bearings and files are any good on your list.

Actually old circular saw blades (and large mill blades) will be L6, and old files will frequently be O1 or W1. A few tests and you can use the steel. Optimistically some of the guys you're looking at are doing that, just not putting it out in the video.

Ries · Dec 19, 2018

Most are.
But a few are not.
Bob Kramer, for example, really knows his stuff. I have seen him give talks to knifemakers, and he is constantly having to shut down "folk wisdom", which he does elegantly, with facts and experience, and with extreme prejudice.
But he is the exception, not the rule- for one thing, he is completely uninterested in killing people- he only makes kitchen knives- which is contrary to the bloodquest of the average knifemaker, who aspires to Rambo-dumb.
Kramer Knives - The Official Bob Kramer Knives Website

There are many more knowledgeable, scientific, and sane knifemakers.
Many, curiously enough, went to COLLEGE- at Southern Illinois University, which has the only graduate degree in blacksmithing in the USA.
A bunch of very skilled, very smart people went there.

Like, for example, Daryl Meier, who I have had the pleasure of meeting. This man really knows his stuff.
Welcome to MEIER STEEL

Not to mention my friend Phillip Baldwin, who doesnt make many knives any more (although one of his is in the Victoria and Albert Museum) but is incredibly knowledgable about metallurgy, forging, jewelry, knives and swords, and pretty much anything metal.
Shining Wave - Mokume-gane, Exotic Laminated Metals and Alloys

adama · Dec 19, 2018

I Just don't get the whole knife thing, to me its just not even remotely technically challenging enough to make me want to get out of bed in the mornings, a knifes such a simple mundane every day tool, its like trying to better some one at making tooth picks, yeah great, but why not make something useful and some what technically advancing not just a sharp edge cutting device which man has had for millennia in one form or another.

That said i too do agree heat treat is all in the tempering, took me a while to master that one, on some of the cutting tools i make its very much the heat treat that lets mine perform in a application everyone else fails in. Whats even funnier is how much they spent on heat treat and the border line moronically simple way i do it to get such good results. Theres defiantly a art form in tempering, haveing a unknown random day to day steel composition kinda renders it some what irrelevant though. I certainly like my alloy steel mixtures closely controlled and i really don't get a hard one for Damascus either, to me its simply steel in need of a bit more mixing aka a moon cake!

Billtodd · Dec 19, 2018

Just wonder . Was the term Cuttler ever in common use in the Americas?

MattiJ · Dec 19, 2018

rke[pler said:
Actually old circular saw blades (and large mill blades) will be L6, and old files will frequently be O1 or W1. A few tests and you can use the steel. Optimistically some of the guys you're looking at are doing that, just not putting it out in the video.

Ok, lets add old circular saw blades to the "any good" list if you make machetes or Bowie knives. Files and ball bearing races are almost guaranteed to work. Tapered roller (timken) bearing races lot less likely.

GregSY · Dec 19, 2018

I was discussing this topic with a friend who was roommates with a guy in college that went on to work for one of the big makers of surgical instruments, which are truly sharp blades. He told me there's more to the SCIENCE of a sharp blade than any normal person can stand hearing. The steel and how it's treated is a very, very precise set iof standards. Then it goes through QA.

Yes, you can 'artist' it and some do very well at it. But you can also be sure that scalpels are made by machines and technicians in very controlled circumstances - not artists.

woodsrider845 · Dec 19, 2018

I have a machete that my dad brought back from the Philippines when he was stationed there in 'Nam. Supposedly made from a chevy leaf spring. No clue about production, hardness, nor actual steel, but that bitch will still cut down a 4" diameter tree. I wonder how they straightened the spring and ground it, but they did.
It actually has some cool hand engraving(may be ground) on it, and a hand tooled leather sheath.
I still use it today.

MattiJ · Dec 19, 2018

woodsrider845 said:
I have a machete that my dad brought back from the Philippines when he was stationed there in 'Nam. Supposedly made from a chevy leaf spring. No clue about production, hardness, nor actual steel, but that bitch will still cut down a 4" diameter tree. I wonder how they straightened the spring and ground it, but they did.
It actually has some cool hand engraving(may be ground) on it, and a hand tooled leather sheath.
I still use it today.

I have visited one village full of blacksmiths("real" ones, not artsy) in Thailand couple of years ago and even today their most common material for cutting tools like axes and machetes was truck leaf springs. Material is probably 1060 to 1095 plain carbon steel, decent to good cutting instrument material.
Straightened and forged to proximate shape in (bamboo)coal forge.

Looks like not her first time around forge:
Thai Blacksmith - YouTube

crossthread · Dec 19, 2018

What bothers me about these shows is the "hype". Dramatic music, racing the clock for no good reason and then a little violence thrown it to appease the masses. A lot of these shows are fodder. They are cheap to produce (no pricey actors, no expensive writers etc). I have owned and used frequently a forge for over fifty years. There is no way I am going to make something that my life or others depends on. That means no guns, steering parts on cars or that sort of thing. I have found over the years that being able to forge, case harden, quench and temper have served me very well. Chasing color bands has always worked for what tempering I do. Of course the QC department is me.

9100 · Dec 19, 2018

If I wanted to make a knife, I would go to Ford Tool Steel, which is only a couple of miles away, and get the exact alloy I wanted with certification. Unless he is in the Tierra Del Fuego armory, why would anyone do anything else?

Bill

GregSY · Dec 19, 2018

It's much more romantic to use some old piece of junk steel, I guess.

I like knives well enough, and at times get tempted to buy one, but truthfully I have little use for a knife beyond occasionally cutting open boxes and stuff like that. I guess if I were hunting, or dating, a knife might be a more significant part of my life.

OT:Are most knife/blade makers knuckleheads?

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