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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Blades at 50 tons do not mean a 50 ton lift. The blades are assembled to the hub and placed as one piece.
    Yes and no. Some turbines the blades and hub are lifted as one piece. Some turbines the blades are mated to the hub in the air. For the mid air assembly, there is a special under the hook lift fixture with remotely controlled grippers. Assembly in air allows bigger blades and can eliminate the need for a tailing crane when lifting. If interested, I am sure I have some photos of this on my phone that I could post.

    The 50 ton number I said was to point out that helicopter assembly of utility scale wind turbines isn't a thing. 50 ton is a nacelle weight from 25 years ago. A very popular machine, the GE 1.6, has a specified nacelle weight of 65t. The blades on it can vary quite a bit on how they are configured, but could be as light at 5.5t. The scrap blades taken off those machines are easily moved with a large wheel loader (eg Cat 950). But that size and weight blade is a 25 year old machine. New machines are much bigger.

    So I think we all agree that helicopters aren't building modern wind turbines. The machines Dualkit posted a link to a 40+ year old sort of machines and completely different from utility sized machines these days. Those are likely 60,000 watt machines versus todays machines with 3,000,000 watts. Kind of like comparing a 5HP paper tape CNC mill to a modern CAT50 CNC mill.

    (interestingly, about 9 years ago I was working on a wind farm under construction on a hill outside of Mojave, CA. They were putting in new megawatt size machines in the midst of 100kW sized machines. If the 100kW sized machines were in the way, they were taken down as scrap. If they weren't in the way, they were left running. After all, they were still making 10's of thousands of dollar per year in electricity.)

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Blades at 50 tons do not mean a 50 ton lift. The blades are assembled to the hub and placed as one piece.
    I think I have seen both methods. No idea wich one is more common.
    Lifting wind turbine blade into place - YouTube

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb0thn View Post
    So I think we all agree that helicopters aren't building modern wind turbines. The machines Dualkit posted a link to a 40+ year old sort of machines and completely different from utility sized machines these days. Those are likely 60,000 watt machines versus todays machines with 3,000,000 watts. Kind of like comparing a 5HP paper tape CNC mill to a modern CAT50 CNC mill
    Shocking to hear those are baby machines, they looked pretty damn big to me.

  6. #144
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    They built a 400 something foot and a pair of 200 something foot ones local a few years back, it is hard to tell the difference from a distance. Even though they are pretty close together

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  8. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Did ICE vehicles suddenly get over 20 percent efficient?


    It is simple, look at hybrid cars, they get 20-50 percent more efficient just by decoupling the engine from the wheels. ICE vehicles are inefficient because the have to run all the time, and so much fuel is wasted. More is wasted than in the electric grid


    Add in that hydro and wind/pv are a growing percentage of grid power
    Shoot with 50% efficiency why do power plants still use steam turbines? Hook them up to Toyota hybrids and we got an extra 20% efficiency. I do not think we are talking the same thermal efficiency here.
    It has been too long since I was in school but I thought gasoline engines got about 20%, diesels about 23%, industrial size steam turbines about 30%.

    Maybe we are talking going down hill? With my old 56 Ford I could leave it in gear and turn off the engine going down a hill(free wheeling in 3rd with the overdrive off). With the right mix of down hill I guess I could have gotten 50% over all. With the engine running and measuring heat in and work out it would still been around 20%. Would have guessed new gasoline engines would be getting 22 to 23% now, but that maybe wish full thinking.

    I went and looked at wikipedia on engine efficiency. It makes less sense than the world i grew up in. A toyota engine can be more efficient than a million pound steam turbine?!?! ARRGGHH!!! I do not want to think ABOUT IT ANYMORE, SORRY FOR BRINGING IT UP.

  9. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Shoot with 50% efficiency why do power plants still use steam turbines? Hook them up to Toyota hybrids and we got an extra 20% efficiency. I do not think we are talking the same thermal efficiency here.
    It has been too long since I was in school but I thought gasoline engines got about 20%, diesels about 23%, industrial size steam turbines about 30%.

    Maybe we are talking going down hill? With my old 56 Ford I could leave it in gear and turn off the engine going down a hill(free wheeling in 3rd with the overdrive off). With the right mix of down hill I guess I could have gotten 50% over all. With the engine running and measuring heat in and work out it would still been around 20%. Would have guessed new gasoline engines would be getting 22 to 23% now, but that maybe wish full thinking.

    I went and looked at wikipedia on engine efficiency. It makes less sense than the world i grew up in. A toyota engine can be more efficient than a million pound steam turbine?!?! ARRGGHH!!! I do not want to think ABOUT IT ANYMORE, SORRY FOR BRINGING IT UP.
    Vehicle efficiency is much worse than the ICE efficiency, because they run even when not needed. They have to be sized for max load.

    Oh, and brush up on your math, 20 percent more efficient than 20 percent efficient is what?

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  11. #147
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    Gustafson, your 50% efficiency was 20 percent higher than I thought was tops for a steam turbine.

    Turns out steam turbines lately can get 47% and gasoline engines 50%. WHAT!!!! My world does not make sense anymore.

    power just turned off, now typing in the dark. Cold supper again!!!

  12. #148
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    Where does the Hoover Dam rank on the efficiency and cost per KWH generated scale? I remember when I toured that place they said the locals at the time paid $.06 per KWH on their electric bill, all charges included. I was in SoCal 250 miles away and SCE was charging close to $.40 per KWH for the power they got from there. That is just dividing KWH used by the total bill. Then as in probably now SCE had a tiered system and it wasn't very hard to get in the highest, tier 5 and pay through the nose. They have a reverse business model, the more you buy the more you pay per unit.

  13. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    power just turned off, now typing in the dark. Cold supper again!!!
    Good grief! When did "mericans - leasto ALL TEXIANS - start taking "helpless-pity-pills" ???

    One can fix THAT little "challenge" with a bean-tin, handful of ignorant SAND or dirt as a "wick", and dam' near anything flammable, "desert rat", Brit or ANZAC army in the field style.

    If you had any warning atall.. any Asian goods store has one-burner Butane stow-away portable Hibachi for about fifteen to thirty bucks! A six pak of canisters and any Asian or experienced GI or outdoorsman can use but TWO of those and put a 7 to 13 course meal for ten on the table. No damned tinned bully-beef on poverty biskit, either. The finest "fusion" Cantonese & Mediterranean cuisine ever seen. Same as the staff of top chefs in SIX star fine dining establishments the world around do right at table side.

    Page Two:

    Our ass-kickin dual "round bottom Wok" twin burner is a Propane fueled duplicate of Asia's "standard" two BIG burner "town gas", Butagas, or Propane jug fueled main kitchen cooker.

    Similar to:

    Rinnai Cooker Natural Appliance Wok 2 Burner Propane Kitchen Gas Stove, View 2 burner propane gas stove, ZHONGXI or OEM Product Details from Guangdong Zhongxi Electric Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

    Near-zero risk of suffering headaches or worse off the tiny Butane rig. 'Mericans tend to have homes with main bathrooms as large as an entire Hong Kong flat for a childless couple. Lotta AIR in those.

    Not a lot more than cracking a nearby window a skosh even for the high-powered Propane rig hauling a big Wok at a combat speed, boiling or steaming veg on the other ring.

    Simply cook or heat water for washing up and then shut 'em OFF.
    Do NOT try to heat the house! Too easy to kill yerself!

    That's what the woodstove, pellet stash, and the VENTED, thanks, backup Kerosene, Diesel, & propane space heaters are for.

    NO vent? Fire up one of yer Herman Nelson big boys whilst y'all play outdoors. Bring the temps up to 80 or so.

    Shut 'er down.

    Now open-up and DUMP ALL of the dirty air for cold but fresh.

    Close-up. Come back indoors.

    In a matter of minutes, the warm mass of all the "matter" in the space will warm that cold air back up. No fumes remaining in the space.

    30 to 60 minutes for my shop. All that concrete, tooling, and "Old iron' now my "thermal flywheel" for the rest of the workday. Off to a hot supper. "Whores bath" off two ricebowls of water, comfy sleep under double duvet.

    Do it again NEXT day.

    Page Three:

    Even with NO gen set, not even a 2-stroke "Tailgater", just TWO 12 V Marine/RV batteries @ about a hundred bucks, each, will keep your router, laptop, and rechargeable walk-about LED lanterns operational for many days. Haul 'em outdoors and charge 'em off the motorcar with yer jumper cable if need be.

    LED "cocktail candles" won't start a fire, are all you need to prevent falling down the stairs or missing the throne and taking a dump in the bathtub by accident.

    Humans adapt rather well to dim light. First million years or so, it was all TF we HAD after sundown!

    Growing body hair to keep warm?
    That skill we seem to have forgotten.

    Intelligent choices of clothing works.


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  15. #150
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    Rolling blackouts,
    Just what is this? Not enough power for everybody so areas get shut down even though the powerlines are fine and you sort of ration it?
    I've never encountered such in Michigan.
    Sure trees fall and take out lines, lighting hits a sub-station, idiots going to fast in the snow take out power poles, but never an intentional power off other than maintenance work.
    In the last case they call me weeks in advance with a timeframe.
    If rolling or rationing do the power people call and tell you the when and how long?
    Does this ever happen with the gas lines?

    Below or near zero and no electric becomes a scramble.
    Get the generator running that has not been started in four years to power the gas furnace fan or wait ??? Stuff wood in the fireplace?
    Summertime and the question of how long can the fridge go.
    If I was smart I'd start my generator once every four months to be prepared but I am not smart. So not only is the wife cold and very not happy but you are tearing apart and cleaning a carb with a flashlight.

    The fun one the entire east cost down. Generator only goes 24 hours on a tank under light load. Guess what, no functional gas stations, my cars have that anti siphon thing built in.
    Local superstores have racks of full 20lb propane tanks but can not sell any with no electricity.

    Strange how we have come to think power and gas as a always part of our lives and just how upset so people get when it fails us
    Bob

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  17. #151
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    Sometimes, but like others the figures never lie but the liers often figure

    It was starting to happen a lot in Ca, sometimes we knew for sure . sometimes not, here in Idaho the problem is momentary flickers, just enough to stop all the machines but at least it seems to only happen in bigger storms when you should be sitting by the fire drinling brandy and looking out the window

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  19. #152
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    I do hope everyone hit with rolling blackouts is warned ahead of time. My computerized equipment doesn't seem to like abrupt lack of power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    Sometimes, but like others the figures never lie but the liers often figure
    What was the quoted line from the Enron documentary ? "They were the smartest guys in the room"

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  22. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I do hope everyone hit with rolling blackouts is warned ahead of time. My computerized equipment doesn't seem to like abrupt lack of power.
    Most often when a special tool is in the material or a tap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    What was the quoted line from the Enron documentary ? "They were the smartest guys in the room"
    Pops used to say it all the time long before Enron, liers go back a long time I recon

  25. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    If I was smart I'd start my generator once every four months to be prepared but I am not smart. So not only is the wife cold and very not happy but you are tearing apart and cleaning a carb with a flashlight.
    You should be stoopider. As I am. All the books say run it not less than once a month. I am too dam' dumb to know any better.

    MEP-803a was run yesterday. Health of batteries on-float, tank and Diesel fuel stash checked as well.

    Fuel stash? Never less than a ten-DAY supply, run partial days in three or four episodes. Staged to keep the food storage sweet. No NEED of 24 hr runs. Grab anything else you need powered, same time-window.

    "Get by" without the gen set running 70+ percent of each day. Fuel supply lasts so long with "preening" it eventually has to go into a Diesel space heater before it becomes a disposal nuisance. There is a dam' good REASON it is Diesel, not gasoline, after all. Stored gasoline is f****d in three months, sometimes LESS.

    Diesel? Not sure anybody really knows how long it can go in sealed drums or with biocides and occassional "polishing". But it is tens of years, not mere months.

    And "Oh, BTW?"

    How can anyone be unaware that fuel stations will be unable to pump and cash registers and such WILL be down without power?

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  27. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb0thn View Post
    Kind of like comparing a 5HP paper tape CNC mill to a modern CAT50 CNC mill.
    Just like to make a small correction here ... paper tape machines in 1960 were not 5 horse. (They weren't cnc, either.) They were more like 125 hp Ingersoll planermills or 5 axis Cincinnati spar mills, weighing in the dozens of tons. CAT 50 was the first standardized tool holder (Sundstrand and K&T used 2" straight shank) because Caterpillar standardized their toolchangers on NMTB 50 for large, powerful, complex machines making D11's and such. NC did not start at the bottom and work up, it started at the top and worked down. "Modern" machines, in general, are much lighter and flimsier than anything from 1980.

    We now return you to our normally-scheduled bickering

    (kb0thn - we started our shanghai office dealing with 3 meter gashers for slewing rings. You've heard of Kaydon ? I think the stepup boxes are pretty much crap, and wonder why stuff people learned in 1945 isn't more commonly used in wind turbine gearboxes today ? Strange.)

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  29. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Rolling blackouts,
    Just what is this? Not enough power for everybody so areas get shut down even though the powerlines are fine and you sort of ration it?
    I...
    The fun one the entire east cost down.
    They did the rolling blackout thing then. Wealthy towns got most of the up time, we were on the short end of the stick, fotunately it was summer and I could get dry ice. That was when I sprang for a generator. Fuel is no issue as it would be run in a garage full of motorbikes with all full tanks typically.

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    My kids went to town this afternoon to find some takeout food. Their surprise, nothing was open. The city was still out of electricity and now no water. They started back out of town to where we live, west of Victoria about 10 miles just off of HWY 59. We have a convenient store and a burger joint at the front of our subdivision. Turns out, they were the only place open for miles around. Cars backed up for blocks trying to get in to buy gas and something to eat. It's getting crazy down here! So far, we still power and water. Our local electrical provider say blackout may still happen. My investments into mini-splits is not working too good. They don't put out enough heat at these low temperatures. Have my Milwaukee flashlight at hand in case it does go out. Ken

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  32. #160
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    ^ I lived in the woods in Lagunitas for several years. Power went out several times a year. When you are ready for it, it's kinda fun.

    What happened to all the preppers ? Did they forget to store any food and a kerosene lamps in with the guns ? I thought Texas was full of strong independent types ?

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