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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    I get your point, but the statement "Hobby grade" is very subjective and open to personal interpretation and that's my point. How can that be a rule? It is unenforceable. I would suggest that you change the term to "Guideline". That would be more appropriate.
    It's not that hard, and Milacron didn't mention that it's also for the "Craftsman/Atlas" cheapo US tools too. We can generally agree on what's a proper professional tool, and what's not. If you can buy it from Harbor Freight, it's not a pro tool.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    It's not that hard, and Milacron didn't mention that it's also for the "Craftsman/Atlas" cheapo US tools too. We can generally agree on what's a proper professional tool, and what's not. If you can buy it from Harbor Freight, it's not a pro tool.
    I get it, I really do, but your example is not correct either. For instance many consider these Chinese mill/drills a hobby machine. They are not. They can be extremely handy. I have had one for 30 yrs.. It has an MT3 quill and a 2HP 3 phase motor. It is not a toy. I use it primarily as a bench top drill press. (I have 3 other milling machines.) Further, I would pretty much bet that every working shop, professional, hobbyist or otherwise, will have at least some mickey mouse tools in use. I go back to my point, this can not be a rule,. It is too subjective.

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Doc,I like your point of view. You are correct. I have to state that this ban on Asian machinery and hobby stuff has become very difficult to enforce and be fair at the same time. As much as we (the forum in general) dislike crappy tools, more and more machine tools are being manufactured in Asia. Yes, there still is a lot of crap, but there is more and more very good machines being made in Asia and I have to say, at some very good price points. So, if a ban is to continue, how do you discriminate between professional and hobby stuff? You certainly can not use size or even cost. If the ban cannot be fairly implemented, it should not exist.
    "I cannot define hobby junk, but I know it when I see it."----------------Think Snow Eh!Ox

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  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    I strongly agree. I am/have been a member of several other forums that I consider to be "overmoderated". It would pain me enormously if I were to one day feel the same about this place. The status quo is OK. The MAE forum is OK. If you remove the political aspect from that sub there will be nothing left, so why bother changing it or making a new one? And FWIW, from Docs posts ITT thread so far, it seems clear that he would be the kind of moderator that I would inevitably end up resenting enough to abandon any sub that he was associated with. I can almost feel his gleeful anticipation at the prospect of locking and banning all that he disapproves of.
    I just don't understand why y'all fuss about the political posts/ threads. They have hundreds, if not thousands of posts, and more views than the clicker can almost keep up with. Obviously somebody out there loves this shhhhtuff! Personaly I don't enjoy it, and thus I don't wander into that board in the first place. If someone doesn't want to read it, they can learn to _ not read it. I have no clue why y'all like to bitch about it so much, b/c you obviously love it to death. (puke) Some folks aren't happy unless they're mad... -------------------Think Snow Eh!Ox

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  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    I get your point, but the statement "Hobby grade" is very subjective and open to personal interpretation and that's my point. How can that be a rule? It is unenforceable. I would suggest that you change the term to "Guideline". That would be more appropriate.
    I think that while there is a gray area where some interpretation might be needed, most of us recognize a thread about "Hobby grade" equipment when we see it. Much of the time the first clue is reading the OP's post. When an obvious hobbyist asks something like "How can I improve the performance of my precision 7 x 10 lathe?" it is blatantly obvious that such a thread does not belong on this forum. Same for questions about using a S______e table top lathe.

    If on the other hand someone asked for opinions about using one of the industrial S______e spindle assemblies on the cross slide of a second operations lathe in a professional shop that might be subject to moderator interpretation.

    A quick look at some of the hobby sites will show what the rule is trying to avoid -- amateur discussions about amateur tools.

    Just my opinion but I suspect a lot of members share it.

    As for political discussions, they are not allowed per the rules BUT a quick look at the statistics show they bring in a lot of traffic which might explain why they are tolerated. I do however think all such discussions should be limited to the Manufacturing In .... subforum which many members already know to avoid if they don't care to read such stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I think that while there is a gray area where some interpretation might be needed, most of us recognize a thread about "Hobby grade" equipment when we see it. Much of the time the first clue is reading the OP's post. When an obvious hobbyist asks something like "How can I improve the performance of my precision 7 x 10 lathe?" it is blatantly obvious that such a thread does not belong on this forum. Same for questions about using a S______e table top lathe.

    If on the other hand someone asked for opinions about using one of the industrial S______e spindle assemblies on the cross slide of a second operations lathe in a professional shop that might be subject to moderator interpretation.

    A quick look at some of the hobby sites will show what the rule is trying to avoid -- amateur discussions about amateur tools.

    Just my opinion but I suspect a lot of members share it.

    As for political discussions, they are not allowed per the rules BUT a quick look at the statistics show they bring in a lot of traffic which might explain why they are tolerated. I do however think all such discussions should be limited to the Manufacturing In .... subforum which many members already know to avoid if they don't care to read such stuff.
    It's the Apocalypse! I agree with Scott! The only problem I have with talk of Politics is when it seeps into other discussions, in other sub-forums. So the Moderator's job would be to move the Thread it's not brain surgery. If I want an Aneurysm then I go read Manufacturing in...if not then I don't.

    As far as Hobby Machinery goes. There are plenty of people here that use Hobby grade Machinery-even some Hobbyists (not pointing out that most real Machinists, are hobby Machinists at heart, they have just figured out a way to make a living at doing what they enjoy). But if a person is a Hobbyist, they can post questions without divulging the fact. They can even say "this is a question about one of thooose Machines" and people are usually as helpful as they can be. It's when new guys think initially that this might be a Hobby forum, that's the problem. We have to have boundaries and stick to them. IE; this Thread was about Bill, and luckily has turned into something useful that the Grand Pupaw is actually reading. Otherwise it's tits on a Boar.

    R

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  11. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    We have to have boundaries and stick to them. IE; this Thread was about Bill, and luckily has turned into something useful that the Grand Pupaw is actually reading.
    If you were to guess that Don and I might both know who William Sealy Gosset was and why it matters, you might also twig to a ban not being entirely the indifferent knee-jerk first posited, either.

    More than one way to serve a community...


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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    The only problem I have with talk of Politics is when it seeps into other discussions, in other sub-forums. So the Moderator's job would be to move the Thread it's not brain surgery. If I want an Aneurysm then I go read Manufacturing in...if not then I don't.R
    You know ... it is possible to skip, or stop reading a post that you find that is of a nature that displeases you and go on to the next post. If you find that thread has tangented into something that no longer interests you, you can "unsubscribe" from it so that it doesn't keep popping up in your subscribed threads feed... .. Just sayin'.....(paragraph)Just not seeing the value in moving a thread on _ say _ "thread wires" to MAE just b/c it went off topic. ??? I might close it, but I wouldn't move it. You guy's shouldn't need your hand held and your meat cut for you at every turn by Mods. ----------------------Think Snow Eh!Ox

  13. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Ok Doc,
    Again, I very much agree with you point of view, but your term "Professional" in its strict interpretation would rule my participation in this forum out.
    -Except it's not necessarily "my" interpretation, it's Milacron's. His justification for banning talk of the cheap Asian machines (meaning almost by definition the hobby guys) has been, as he's stated many times, "that it wouldn't look professional to the advertisers and bigger shops that use PM as a resource".

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    One thing I don't get is people snivelling about other people. If you don't like someone, skip their posts. It's not that difficult.
    -Except one could say the exact same thing about the hobbyists and cheap Asian machines.

    (Keeping in mind I have nothing against hobbyists or cheap Asian machines- I was one and have owned them. It's just the obvious hypocrisy inherent in that statement.)

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    And FWIW, from Docs posts ITT thread so far, it seems clear that he would be the kind of moderator that I would inevitably end up resenting enough to abandon any sub that he was associated with. I can almost feel his gleeful anticipation at the prospect of locking and banning all that he disapproves of.
    -Spot on!

    PM was at one time a very valuable resource for me, and I would get many patient, helpful answers to even the stupidest of my questions.

    But over the years, it seems the patient, helpful "old guard" has faded away, and we're left with only those that chase off newbies with torches and pitchforks, and, it seems, don't actually do any machining since they seem to have hours and hours of free time every day to post hundreds of almost entirely non-machining-related nonsense.

    If I'm given the opportunity to step on a few toes to try and bring back some of that civility and usefulness, you betcha I'll do it.

    Doc.

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  17. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    As far as Hobby Machinery goes. There are plenty of people here that use Hobby grade Machinery-even some Hobbyists (not pointing out that most real Machinists, are hobby Machinists at heart, they have just figured out a way to make a living at doing what they enjoy).
    -It's worth noting that twenty years ago (come July 1st! ) I launched my shop with a worn-out Jet mill-drill, and a year later, a new Grizzly 9x20 lathe.

    My issue with the hobbyist thing is just that- virtually all the professionals started out AS hobbyists. If we keep chasing off the hobby guys- often with the aforementioned proverbial torches and pitchforks- where are our new members supposed to come from?

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -Spot on!

    PM was at one time a very valuable resource for me, and I would get many patient, helpful answers to even the stupidest of my questions.

    But over the years, it seems the patient, helpful "old guard" has faded away, and we're left with only those that chase off newbies with torches and pitchforks, and, it seems, don't actually do any machining since they seem to have hours and hours of free time every day to post hundreds of almost entirely non-machining-related nonsense.

    If I'm given the opportunity to step on a few toes to try and bring back some of that civility and usefulness, you betcha I'll do it.

    Doc.
    Yup, take us back to when people of color and women knew their place.

    You'd be a disaster of a mod.

  19. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -It's worth noting that twenty years ago (come July 1st! ) I launched my shop with a worn-out Jet mill-drill, and a year later, a new Grizzly 9x20 lathe.My issue with the hobbyist thing is just that- virtually all the professionals started out AS hobbyists. If we keep chasing off the hobby guys- often with the aforementioned proverbial torches and pitchforks- where are our new members supposed to come from?Doc.
    You keep saying this, but I for one never "hobbied" in this business. I put in 60-98.5 hours of it at werk. Shirley never saw any need (or time) to doo it to home too. ??? I bought equipment when I intended to make a living from it.-------------------Think Snow Eh!Ox

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  21. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    I get it, I really do, but your example is not correct either. For instance many consider these Chinese mill/drills a hobby machine. They are not. They can be extremely handy. I have had one for 30 yrs.. It has an MT3 quill and a 2HP 3 phase motor. It is not a toy. I use it primarily as a bench top drill press. (I have 3 other milling machines.) Further, I would pretty much bet that every working shop, professional, hobbyist or otherwise, will have at least some mickey mouse tools in use. I go back to my point, this can not be a rule,. It is too subjective.
    You'd lose that bet. Aside from that, if you already recognize a piece of equipment as "Mickey Mouse" then you can see the difference between professional level equipment and "hobby" level or home shop level equipment just fine. No serious shop would use this stuff, because it can't be used to do serious production work at the professional level. In a professional shop, the order of business is "grip and rip" - in other words, hold on to the work tight and remove anything that is extraneous to the finished part as expeditiously as possible. Tiny peck cuts at baby feeds are not the order of the day - and that's about all a hobby level machine can handle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -Spot on! PM was at one time a very valuable resource for me, and I would get many patient, helpful answers to even the stupidest of my questions. But over the years, it seems the patient, helpful "old guard" has faded away, and we're left with only those that chase off newbies with torches and pitchforks, and, it seems, don't actually do any machining since they seem to have hours and hours of free time every day to post hundreds of almost entirely non-machining-related nonsense. If I'm given the opportunity to step on a few toes to try and bring back some of that civility and usefulness, you betcha I'll do it. Doc.
    Since you seem blissfully unaware of the broader landscape, the majority of the participants in ITT reside mainly in the CNC sub, where we are all VERY actively exchanging ON TOPIC knowledge and assistance. That is to say, the largest sub on the site and the one that most, if not all, external parties are solely interested in. I'm sure you've never ventured there. In fact, I don't know where you DO post since the only threads that I ever see you participate in are those of this nature or similar, and as I recall you have been eager enough to take up your own pitchfork in the past.

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  24. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    You keep saying this, but I for one never "hobbied" in this business.
    -I'm sure you didn't, and I'm sure there's hundreds of others as well. I know three of the guys at one of the local industrial shops, and none had so much as cranked a handle before getting hired there as a beginner or 'gopher'.

    On the other hand, I know hundreds of people (that is, mostly online) that started out with hobby machines, doing hobby work, and eventually turned that into a full-fledged job.

    And in the current market, where nobody wants to do actual physical work in a dirty, smelly factory, those enthusiasts that already like machining, and better yet already have their own machines- cheap Asian or otherwise- should be welcomed and encouraged, not driven off.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Since you seem blissfully unaware of the broader landscape, the majority of the participants in ITT reside mainly in the CNC sub, where we are all VERY actively exchanging ON TOPIC knowledge and assistance. That is to say, the largest sub on the site and the one that most, if not all, external parties are solely interested in. I'm sure you've never ventured there. In fact, I don't know where you DO post since the only threads that I ever see you participate in are those of this nature or similar, and as I recall you have been eager enough to take up your own pitchfork in the past.
    I seldom ever cross paths with him, but that is likely b/c I seldom find my way into the General board."SEARCH" only finds one post of his in "CNC", but in all fairness, cnsidering that he is (apparently) in [the greater] Anchorage area, I would doubt that he does much "Manufacturing" and likely does mostly repair work? And I would think that Manuel equipment would be very well suited for this type work.This doesn't make him a hobby guy by default.-----------------------Think Snow Eh!Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post

    <snip>

    in the CNC sub, where we are all VERY actively exchanging ON TOPIC knowledge and assistance.

    <snip>
    Gerg, On any other day I'd be standing behind you 100 percent on that but "Flip Flops"? Lol... That is not a dig at the OP of that thread BTW just an observation.

    Brent

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Since you seem blissfully unaware of the broader landscape, the majority of the participants in ITT reside mainly in the CNC sub, where we are all VERY actively exchanging ON TOPIC knowledge and assistance.
    -Actually, that's precisely my point. I'm quite well aware of the CNC section, and I'm a regular reader in there.

    That is, reader and not participant, because my current CNC skills are basically nonexistent. Arguably less than nonexistent.

    I very much need to improve- my shop is about 20 years behind the curve- but the only CNC machines I can currently access and use, and the only ones I'll likely be able to afford to start with for the foreseeable future, are essentially "hobby" ones like the Tormachs, and I know from long experience that such questions are not well tolerated in there.

    Yes, in five years, I hope to have a proper HAAS or similar "real" machine, but I first have to start with something I can afford, and have the space for.

    Doc.


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