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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Follow what is said in this post.

    How to Remove Ethanol From Gasoline | Sciencing



    Tom
    Now that is pretty interesting

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    I use ethanol free in all small engines.
    It seems they use fuel lines and diaphragm that dissolve in alcohol on purpose.
    I've had a local mechanic replace the lines and repair all my chainsaws, weedeaters, and leafblowers.
    He said if I used 100% real gas, I wouldn't need him .

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    Quote Originally Posted by crossthread View Post
    Thanks again for all the great feedback. Does anyone know if there is a relatively safe, easy way to remove the alcohol from E10? I'm just talking about a gallon or so once in a while. Is the alcohol more volatile then the gas? I know that alcohol absorbs water but it there something that absorbs alcohol and not gas? Just curious really.
    How far are you from Fredricksburg, 70 miles? That isn't worth the trip to score a 5 gallon can worth every once in a while? You must be spoiled where you live, a trip to the Lowe's there kills 2 hours for me ,easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crossthread View Post
    My wife just bought a new push mower to clean up where I can't get my riding mower. The dealer she bought it from said the warranty would be void if she used fuel with any alcohol in it and sold her a can of alcohol free fuel (quite expensive). I did some searching to find out what is and is not accurate about the use of E10. I got mixed results. Will adding a gas stabilizer solve the alcohol problem or not? Thanks very much.
    Its ok for you to use it....I am not gonna. My experience has been that any sort of diaphram or any thing made of rubber or plastic that gets immersed in ethanol everyday becomes brittle and no longer flexible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolsteel View Post
    Its ok for you to use it....I am not gonna. My experience has been that any sort of diaphram or any thing made of rubber or plastic that gets immersed in ethanol everyday becomes brittle and no longer flexible.
    Not necessarily. It's not a big deal to make something with rubber components resistant to both gasoline and ethanol. It wouldn't even cost that much more either (from a sealing perspective). I wonder why nobody is marketing a small engine that runs on ethanol fuel without failing prematurely? Is it something fundamental about carbureted motors that tend to sit for long periods of time? Or maybe there's less money in it than just saying that's how long they last so go get another one.

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    I may be mistaken, but my understanding is gas stabilizer does nothing to address the tendency to attract water. Nor do I think it prevents the alcohol from degrading any rubber components.

    That said, how often do you return a lawnmower under warranty. If it lasts for 5 years are you going to successfully return it and get your money back? Doubtful.

    I run gas with ethanol through small engines all the time. But I try to run them dry every month and wouldn't think of returning anything under warrantee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    Not necessarily. It's not a big deal to make something with rubber components resistant to both gasoline and ethanol. It wouldn't even cost that much more either (from a sealing perspective). I wonder why nobody is marketing a small engine that runs on ethanol fuel without failing prematurely? Is it something fundamental about carbureted motors that tend to sit for long periods of time? Or maybe there's less money in it than just saying that's how long they last so go get another one.
    Achtually there is not too many good rubber compounds that withstand both ethanol and the wild hydrocarbon mix called gasoline. Add acetone just to make sure that it dissolves everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    Achtually there is not too many good rubber compounds that withstand both ethanol and the wild hydrocarbon mix called gasoline. Add acetone just to make sure that it dissolves everything
    A well-formulated FKM will do the job, at about 3x the cost of standard nitrile. The only other downside there is a low-temp brittleness which is actually relevant to the use case of a snowblower. Add in Acetone, and yeah. you're looking at a two-entry list: Teflon and Kalrez.

    Apparently HNBR, despite ranking "A" for both gasoline and ethanol, is not recommended for "gasohol" according to my reference manual (which you made me go dig out ). That's the one I was thinking of, since it's only a modest upcharge from NBR. Wonder if it's an "aqua regia" type scenario, where neither component can gain a foothold on its own, but together there's a reaction that can take place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    A well-formulated FKM will do the job, at about 3x the cost of standard nitrile. The only other downside there is a low-temp brittleness which is actually relevant to the use case of a snowblower. Add in Acetone, and yeah. you're looking at a two-entry list: Teflon and Kalrez.
    Yeah, I remember once looking at seal options and Kalrez looked like excellent candidate.
    Until I checked price and availability

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    I know that to distill alcohol out of water you heat to the boiling point of the alcohol, which is below the boiling point of water. Then catch the condensate and into a jar, then an oak barrel and

    Is the boiling point of gasoline higher, lower or the same as the ethanol in it? If the gasoline could just be heated to drive out the ethanol without loosing anything important that could work for low volume uses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I know that to distill alcohol out of water you heat to the boiling point of the alcohol, which is below the boiling point of water. Then catch the condensate and into a jar, then an oak barrel and

    Is the boiling point of gasoline higher, lower or the same as the ethanol in it? If the gasoline could just be heated to drive out the ethanol without loosing anything important that could work for low volume uses.
    You can go ahead and intentionally produce clouds of explosive vapor, attempt to collect them, and condense them in a usable form in a "low-volume" setup. I will be right here on the east side of the Mississippi!

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    Besides being very dangerous, gasoline and alcohol form a near azeotrope, that is, the boiling points are very close to one another. Unless you have laboratory grade fractional distillation column, it is doubtful that distillation would work.

    One the safety side, remember that companies that deal this type of thing everyday occasionally go boom.

    "Distillation curves are presented for single-alcohol blends in gasoline, containing 5−85% by volume of methanol, ethanol, 1-propanol, 2-propanol, 1-butanol, 2-butanol, i-butanol (2-methyl-1-propanol), and t-butanol (2-methyl-2-propanol). Most alcohols are shown to form mixtures with gasoline exhibiting near-azeotropic behavior that significantly affect the shape of the distillation curves. The results are compared to literature data available for some alcohols. In addition, distillation curves for a variety of dual-alcohol blends are presented, containing 10% of each of two alcohols. We show that such dual-alcohol blends have distillation curves closer to that of the base gasoline than single-alcohol blends with 20% of either alcohol individually. At present, ethanol is the only biofuel alcohol available in scale. As other alcohol biofuels become available in the future, it may be advantageous to use them in dual- or multialcohol blends to minimize their impact on fuel volatility."
    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021...nalCode=enfuem

    Tom

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    QT:{Will adding a gas stabilizer} I would say not to use E-10 in any air cooled engine, or auto engines 1980 or younger...

    Most gas is now 5% E and alcohol base fuels run hotter so the valves take a hard beating with its use. Modern auto engines have better valves and most are water cooled so better able to stand cope with the extra heat.
    Older autos and tractors are better served with using a lead additive.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/MACs-Auto...ditive&veh=sem

    Stabilizers stabilize the gas to last longer from jelling and going weak but do little to nothing for the heat of alcohol base fuels.

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    When I raced a HD 883 in speedway sidecar we used methanol fuel and actually added a bit of water ,as well as castor oil,acetone and nitrobenzene.The carby was a thing called a Wal Phillips fuel injector.....it was actually just a primitive carby without a float.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    QT:{Will adding a gas stabilizer} I would say not to use E-10 in any air cooled engine, or auto engines 1980 or younger...
    Good luck finding E-0. I believe everything is E-10 where I live, at least I haven't anything else. Small engine repair shops are doing a booming business in new carbs. I needed a new one for my new Briggs and Stratton all plastic carb engine. Supplier is backed up two weeks.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Besides being very dangerous, gasoline and alcohol form a near azeotrope, that is, the boiling points are very close to one another. Unless you have laboratory grade fractional distillation column, it is doubtful that distillation would work.

    One the safety side, remember that companies that deal this type of thing everyday occasionally go boom.

    "Distillation curves are presented for single-alcohol blends in gasoline, containing 5−85% by volume of methanol, ethanol, 1-propanol, 2-propanol, 1-butanol, 2-butanol, i-butanol (2-methyl-1-propanol), and t-butanol (2-methyl-2-propanol). Most alcohols are shown to form mixtures with gasoline exhibiting near-azeotropic behavior that significantly affect the shape of the distillation curves. The results are compared to literature data available for some alcohols. In addition, distillation curves for a variety of dual-alcohol blends are presented, containing 10% of each of two alcohols. We show that such dual-alcohol blends have distillation curves closer to that of the base gasoline than single-alcohol blends with 20% of either alcohol individually. At present, ethanol is the only biofuel alcohol available in scale. As other alcohol biofuels become available in the future, it may be advantageous to use them in dual- or multialcohol blends to minimize their impact on fuel volatility."
    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021...nalCode=enfuem

    Tom
    Thanks. I suspected it was not as simple as making booze.

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    The greens and climate fanatics seem to be calling for the total elimination of any kind of IC engine from the transport future.This is a considerable shift in position from biofuel IC engines position of a few years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    The greens and climate fanatics seem to be calling for the total elimination of any kind of IC engine from the transport future.This is a considerable shift in position from biofuel IC engines position of a few years ago.
    You seem to be repeating this fact free opinion over and over

    tell us how you really feel

    or you could help the OP with some actual advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    Not necessarily. It's not a big deal to make something with rubber components resistant to both gasoline and ethanol. It wouldn't even cost that much more either (from a sealing perspective). I wonder why nobody is marketing a small engine that runs on ethanol fuel without failing prematurely? Is it something fundamental about carbureted motors that tend to sit for long periods of time? Or maybe there's less money in it than just saying that's how long they last so go get another one.
    They do.

    Most of them

    You can no longer leave fuel in carburetors forever, or fuel in tanks forever, but late model 4 stroke engines in my experience work fine.

    Old rubber in old engines is different, and maybe even new parts for old engines

    2 strokes with tygon hose in their tanks are going to fail, due to the tygon only being rated for ethanol inside, not outside[A friend did extensive research on this for his hobbies]

    As described above, my generator[9 years old, sits around by definition] is now fine after a little cleaning and fuel treatment, and no disassembly, so there are no rubber issues.

    I have also had no real problems with several vintage cars and not so vintage[but pre ethanol] cars.

    I am not trying to say ethanol affecting rubber never happens, but that it is the other effects the ethanol has on the system that are more egregious.

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    Modern engines are designed for ethanol. In time some /all may become designed for 100% alcohol and do just fine. lawn mower engines in order to keep low prices often don't have stellite valve seats, adequate cooling. new design plastics. They could be made that way for perhaps a 10 to 25% increase in price. Likely in time they will be made that way because people wish to ignore the instructions because someone told them they could. So being foolish will cost more for everybody. Simple facts car and truck engines before about 1980 should avoid E fuels if they can. Lawn mowers that state avoid E fuels should do just that, again if they can or just expect to get less life from them.
    Agree it is the warranty that makes the rule not the salesman. He may just be using his experience to try to give good advice. Likely cost a lot to redesign your Duesenberg for E-fuels. https://classics.autotrader.com/clas...nberg-for-sale

    Guess we need corner guards at every corner to hand walk people across the street because they think they can walk any time with their eyes closed. But yes, likely their brothers, wife’s sister’s aunt said that is safe because car drivers are supposed to be looking.

    QT: [It's not a big deal to make something with rubber components resistant to both gasoline and ethanol.] they are doing just that.

    I use lead additive for my old 70s ford tractor. That does not help the fuel hoses so I had to replace them with modern lines. I know, just go buy a new $35K machine and you don't need to worry.

    All engines could/should be made to run on Smirnoff.

    Where to buy non E fuels: (but at higher prices.)
    Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada


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