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  1. #81
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    IIRC Brazil has pure ethanol at the gas pump, vehicles are made (for that market)
    and run on 100%.

    Some feedback is needed for this point or against it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    IIRC Brazil has pure ethanol at the gas pump, vehicles are made (for that market)
    and run on 100%.

    Some feedback is needed for this point or against it.
    E85 (85% ethanol) is quite popular for tuners in here (and US), cheap high octane fuel that runs cool.
    AFAIK 100% ethanol works only in warm climates like Brazil, you need that 15% of gasoline related components for cold starts.

    100% ethanol would be lot easier problem to solve on seals and rubber parts as its easy to find compatible materials for alcohols only. Make it a mix with gasoline and it gets more difficult.

    (I suspect that E10 would be lot less problematic if its mixed to high purity (alkylate) gasoline feedstock (similar to 100LL) instead of the liquefied tar. Ethanol is only part of the problem)

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    I read the procedure posted here for removing alcohol from gas with great interest simply because of the simplicity and relative safety. Aside from the fact that alcohol seems to degrade various components in the fuel system, it seems the biggest problem is the water combined with the alcohol that corrodes the carburetor. Would it be possible to have some sort of inline filter/dryer in series with the gas tank that would absorb the water? I know there are some materials (such as nylon) that absorb water but possibly not gasoline. It would probably not be practical on very small engines such as chain saws and weed eaters (due to lack of physical space) but on larger engines I for one would not be opposed to changing some kind of inline filter that would keep water out of the carburetor.

  4. #84
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    This is a good video showing the stages of alcohol removal. One key point is the addition of food coloring to the water to provide visible phase separation.

    YouTube

    Tom

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  6. #85
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    That is pretty darn cool T.

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    "I suspect that E10 would be lot less problematic if its mixed to high purity (alkylate) gasoline feedstock (similar to 100LL) instead of the liquefied tar. Ethanol is only part of the problem"
    There is no such thing as pure gasoline. Gasoline, like at least 99% of petroleum products is a mixture of compounds. It must meet physical performance standards, no one gives a shit what the mixture contains . Alkylation has nothing to do with 100ll. It is used to convert isobutane and light alkenes to higher octane molecules. Again the resulting alkylate is a mixture where the word "purity" does not apply.

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    Racer friend uses E98 in one of her cars, just enough gasoline to keep you from drinking it.

    I have several vehicles and power tools that only get used occasionally, sometimes once a year, they are left with regular pump gas, have not had any issues with that. But it is in a very dry climate with cool temps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    This is a good video showing the stages of alcohol removal. One key point is the addition of food coloring to the water to provide visible phase separation.

    YouTube

    Tom
    Would removing the ethanol negate the need to add stabilizer to keep the fuel for a longer time?

    Is the ethanol useful for anything after being removed from gasoline? Easy enough to get it out of the water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post

    Is the ethanol useful for anything after being removed from gasoline? Easy enough to get it out of the water.
    …..Killing the grass out back of the shop....

    The ethanol removed, what is the octane rating now ?

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    26 pounds of corn to make a gallon of E.
    Then about 1 1/2 gal of E to match a gal of gas...
    So about 39 pounds of corn to match a gal of gas.
    How Much Corn for Ethanol | HowStuffWorks



    The final cost of the fuel-grade ethanol is about $1.74 per gallon then add about 60 cents tax and about $2.34. So we might drive to the poor house at a bargain with money left over but may starve on the way.
    What ever happened to wind up cars? I know I had one when I was a kid. Big long lever and a mule or two to wind a full size one up, just a few days winding and who knows where one might go for free.... and save the mule poop for the garden, how green is that. Yes, and sleep with the mules to save heating costs. Mules get to old to work you can eat em. wohw we gonan sav nuf to not need to work anne moor. jus set unda a treean wach em birds flying around.

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  14. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    26 pounds of corn to make a gallon of E.
    Then about 1 1/2 gal of E to match a gal of gas...
    so about 39 pounds of corn to match a gal of gas.
    How Much Corn for Ethanol | HowStuffWorks
    all the diesel fuel for the tractors & combines, trucking to the ethanol plant.
    ethanol plant energy inputs, and then trucking to the refinery.

    And then the mixed fuel, now having less mileage, trucking more of it to the stations.

    You, greenies are soo smart.

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    Its really a jobs program for corn farmers, distillers and truckers.

    Tom

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    I give the American farmers a lot of credit, they put in a lot of hard hours and produce enough to make food prices reasonable. Some have old trucks still in good running condition that get lead additive so they can keep them running.
    Yes some use farm gas that has no E added.
    Agricultural & Farm Fuel Delivery Lansing MI | Eiseler Oil

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Good luck finding E-0. I believe everything is E-10 where I live, at least I haven't anything else. Small engine repair shops are doing a booming business in new carbs. I needed a new one for my new Briggs and Stratton all plastic carb engine. Supplier is backed up two weeks.

    Tom
    A few years ago i needed to rebuild the carb on my Stihl weed whip. I found the carb for sale on Amazon from the same Chinese supplier used by Stihl.I ordered it...it cost about $3 more than ordering a rebuild kit. I bolted it up and was back in business.Dont wait on getting a rebuild....order it and bolt on a new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolsteel View Post
    A few years ago i needed to rebuild the carb on my Stihl weed whip. I found the carb for sale on Amazon from the same Chinese supplier used by Stihl.I ordered it...it cost about $3 more than ordering a rebuild kit. I bolted it up and was back in business.Dont wait on getting a rebuild....order it and bolt on a new one.
    When it comes to the all-molded-plastic B&S carb, last year it was plugged. I took it apart to clean. Some minuscule particle had passed through the filter and blocked the main jet. I was able to reassemble it, but this is not a design meant to be serviced. This spring it is plugged again. New carb this time and looking for a new owner. No more all molded carbs for me. B&S used to be a simple, reliable and easily serviced design. Not anymore.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    …..Killing the grass out back of the shop....

    The ethanol removed, what is the octane rating now ?
    Less than it was which is the problem with removing the ethanol. Based the percentages and octane ratings I think it lowers it around 3 - 4 points. Could be more, I'm not a fuel engineer. The ethanol raises the octane rating and allowed the removal of MTBE. MTBE was much better than lead but had its own pollution issues.

    Except for problems like eating the clear vinyl fuel lines on weed whackers, leaf blowers, etc. as long as you don't let the E10 get old, it works fine.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    "I suspect that E10 would be lot less problematic if its mixed to high purity (alkylate) gasoline feedstock (similar to 100LL) instead of the liquefied tar. Ethanol is only part of the problem"

    There is no such thing as pure gasoline. Gasoline, like at least 99% of petroleum products is a mixture of compounds. It must meet physical performance standards, no one gives a shit what the mixture contains . Alkylation has nothing to do with 100ll. It is used to convert isobutane and light alkenes to higher octane molecules. Again the resulting alkylate is a mixture where the word "purity" does not apply.
    Yes and no as (afaik) typically 100LL is made mostly from alkylation process gasoline.
    I was using "high purity" gasoline pretty loosely in this case, meaning that it contains less "unwanted" components like aromatics (good for octane rating but gives you cancer) and polyolefins (gum up the gas)

    "alkylate gasoline" sold in here has 0.1% olefins vs. 15% or so for regular gas. 0.2% aromatics vs 35% in regular.

    Interestingly enough (old book) Aviation Fuels Technology by Eric Martin Goodger mentions that US specification 100 and 115 octane avgas contains aromatics to swell the rubber seals in fuel system to reduce leaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    Yes and no as (afaik) typically 100LL is made mostly from alkylation process gasoline.
    I was using "high purity" gasoline pretty loosely in this case, meaning that it contains less "unwanted" components like aromatics (good for octane rating but gives you cancer) and polyolefins (gum up the gas)

    "alkylate gasoline" sold in here has 0.1% olefins vs. 15% or so for regular gas. 0.2% aromatics vs 35% in regular.

    Interestingly enough (old book) Aviation Fuels Technology by Eric Martin Goodger mentions that US specification 100 and 115 octane avgas contains aromatics to swell the rubber seals in fuel system to reduce leaks.
    If I remember correctly, that was done on WWII era planes using a rubber which aggressively swells when exposed to such fluids. The idea was that the rubber in an intermediate layer on the fuel tank would swell in a matter of minutes to plug up small leaks caused by minor battle damage. Not sure why they'd want to do so in an engineered sealing interface, but the field of synthetic elastomers was advancing very quickly in the mid 20th century, so established best practices based on stable proven technology was limited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfootin View Post
    However some stations advertised as ethanol free are definitely not. One of my cars, a 650hp small block chev would not start after sitting three weeks with fresh fuel. This was fuel from a Petro-Can station where I had previously had good results.
    I'm surprised you ever got good results from Petrocan, they've been ethanol proponents for a long time, and after buying out Sunoco (who first spoiled their ultra 94 with ethanol back in the early 90's) petrosmell has ethanol across the board. The only station I am more or less certain don't have ethanol is Shell premium, their mid-grade is mixer pumps, so it'll at least be a diluted 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Is the ethanol useful for anything after being removed from gasoline? Easy enough to get it out of the water.
    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    …..Killing the grass out back of the shop....
    Wouldnt the water alcohol mix just be windshield de-icer? I dont have any experience to know for sure, no ice to speak of out here.


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