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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I wonder if we had been born with 8 fingers and Octal math would 10x10 be so easy and intuitive?
    Bob
    12 x 12 seems intuitive enough to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    My question is...I assume there is a name for this phenomenon
    I think you're looking for static vs dynamic measurement.

    You can't calculate the total wear on a ball screw based on the average loading, you have to know the complete usage pattern, as the rate of wear will vary with every load change.

    If your electricity prices go up with every peak of usage, it could pay to have a power wall to do load levelling and avoid those peaks.

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    Golf balls? ...........Ask Donald Trump, he knows all about em.

    How Donald Trump cheats at golf even when playing against Tiger Woods

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    I was told once that our eyes cannot really process visual whatever while moving...as if they need to stop in order to focus...so when your eyes look left and then right, the blur you see is made by your brain doing its best to connect the dots. Sometime after that I asked an ophthalmologist friend of mine who confirmed it. I bet THAT has everything to do with your phenomenon.

    Maybe it’s this??:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccadic_masking

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    The golf ball problem is easy. Put the entire mechansim on a scale. Weigh it when the balls are at the top, weight it after the balls have dropped. Of course in the middle, the weight is zero.

    Right?

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    Last summer I took a fairly bad fall on concrete, landing on my left side so my head did not get the full force, but a serious amount. Afterward, I had various odd effects. One was that something was moving without changing its position. I would line it up with something like a window frame and the spacing would not change although the item was clearly moving. Also, sometimes I would see images in shadows. I also had bad vertigo, which I had before for a different problem with my ears. I had learned to keep touch with a motionless object and operate on my kinesthetic senses instead of my semicircular canal gyros so the problem was not as bad as it could have been. The effects gradually wore off.

    Have you ever wondered why chickens walking move their heads in a series of jerks. It seems that their limited brains cannot deal with movement so they thrust their heads forward and hold them motionless while walking their bodies forward until they have reached the limit of their necks, then thrust their heads forward again, seeing in a series of snapshots.

    Bill

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    The golf balls are just an illustration...the 'real' problem is knowing what your power will cost BEFORE you incur the cost, or at least WHILE you are incurring it. By not knowing until AFTER the expense, you're closing the barn door after the horse got out.

    Power walls and load leveling are not an option when you're consuming 85MW in a process plant. It's all but impossible to gain or shed 10 MW to satisfy a power company when you are first and foremost attuned to the needs of the process.

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    Men are better at seeing motion in their peripheral vision. Helps in hunting and avoiding predators. Men can distinguish 200 colors. Women can distinguish 1,000 colors. Helps in only picking ripe fruit and discarding food that has gone off.
    Bill D

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    I read that trump is so good at golf that he won one tournament a year before the course even existed. he has also claimed wins for some tournaments that never happened claiming he would have won if they had played. Same idea as fantasy football I guess.
    Bil lD

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    I don't know, but I think you'd better figure out how to out smart the power company...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I ran into a real world example of this issue. I was looking for silver with a layer of cadmium oxide for contacts to reduce arcing. The supplier would only sell a slab and I would have to roll it out myself, which I could do, but I was stuck with the quantity they wanted to sell me. Then, I had to place a firm order for that amount but they would not quote it. Delivery would be some weeks away and the price would be based on the silver market at that time. I couldn't cancel the order and would have to pay whatever they demanded. Needless to say, I didn't play their game.

    Bill
    I don't know why you would think this unfair or unusual. Commodity prices fluctuate and silver prices can be very volatile. Big companies use future contracts and options as a type of insurance policy against a future price rise. That insurance is not free but is is the cost of doing business.

    Smaller suppliers don't have the ability, willingness, or expertise to hedge so they just want to pass that cost and risk on to you. Not that you would want to, but you could have bought an equal dollar amount of a silver option when you placed the order. That way if the cost of the slab went up so would the value of the silver option you bought. You could then exercise the option and make enough to offset the increase in the slab price. If the price of silver went down you would just let the option expire. You would then only be out the cost of the option, which is the insurance cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    The golf ball example is a simplified one....even if you couldn't count them as they fell, you'd still know after they settled there would be 100. To make it a closer example, I'd change the number of spaces in the bottom egg crate as the balls fell, and the agreement would be you'd pay for every ball that didn't find a home. And the amount you'd pay would also be variable.

    Normally, a power consumer is encouraged to maintain a certain power factor level at their plant - always lagging, but not too much lagging. If they get sloppy and exceed that level, they incur a penalty. Fair enough. But under this sort of agreement, it becomes very difficult to know if they have gotten sloppy until the bill arrives. And, what's sloppy one month might not be the previous month.
    Then the lower box can be demand for power when the temperature plunges and people heat their homes. It is a shock to the system. The input from above has a maximum output if power outages do not prevent them from producing. So it should be known how much increased demand could happen and how much electricity can be delivered.

    Yep Enron was a bunch of con people. I was surprised Cali went for it so heavy. Likely they did not want to build more generating infrastructure. Old story really.

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    You might be vaguely recalling the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? It places a limit to the accuracy with which some things (much smaller and/or faster moving than golf balls) can be measured.

    If it were a 100 fundamental particles in boxes at the top, accelerated to 100 new boxes at the bottom, we couldn't determine their position and momentum (mass times velocity) all at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    The golf ball problem is easy. Put the entire mechansim on a scale. Weigh it when the balls are at the top, weight it after the balls have dropped. Of course in the middle, the weight is zero.

    Right?
    Put birds in an airtight box on a scale. It was the same when the birds are in flight.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    Power walls and load leveling are not an option when you're consuming 85MW in a process plant. It's all but impossible to gain or shed 10 MW to satisfy a power company when you are first and foremost attuned to the needs of the process.
    Sounds like you need to start generating your own power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Put birds in an airtight box on a scale. It was the same when the birds are in flight..
    If you fire a rifle and collect the momentum of the projectile and gases, it will all balance out over time but the rifle will still hurt your shoulder momentarily during the bullet's flight. If the birds all jump off the floor at the same time, the box will be driven down until the birds hit the top of the box. The closed system is a bit more complicated when the birds take flight because the air forced downward by their wings has to correlate with their weight removed momentarily. An astronaut can shift part of himself by moving another part. If you have a scale attached to those parts, they will record a momentary change. You can't change a closed system over time but you can for the duration of the movement.

    The Dean Drive had a lot of people convinced that it was possible but it wasn't so.

    Stand on a bathroom scale and jiggle up and down with your toes on the scale. You can make yourself lighter because the mechanism is a negative peak reader.

    P. S. This refers to the older mechanical scales, not electronic ones.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Have you ever wondered why chickens walking move their heads in a series of jerks. It seems that their limited brains cannot deal with movement so they thrust their heads forward and hold them motionless while walking their bodies forward until they have reached the limit of their necks, then thrust their heads forward again, seeing in a series of snapshots.
    Humans do the same thing. Watch dancers or ice skaters spinning some time - they hold their heads still in relation to some point, then spin it around quickly back to that same point again when their body has turned almost a full circle. It's called 'spotting'. Even Nureyev

    Quote Originally Posted by Truturning
    Yep Enron was a bunch of con people. I was surprised Cali went for it so heavy. Likely they did not want to build more generating infrastructure.
    That was the con, that all of a sudden California did not have enough capacity. But it was too obviously a fake, there was no difference from the year before, when everything was fine. And Los Angles, who creates their own power, had nary a bit of trouble. It was manipulated, and PG&E went right along with the story because it would have meant a bunch of money for them, too.

    Contemplate this : if Xi Jinping were in charge, all the people running PG&E would be in prison. They don't put up with that crap in China. For another example, remember a few years ago when there was heavy flooding ? This city got inundated, then that city ... then the head guy (I think it was Hu Jintao then ?) said publicly, "The next city that gets flooded, the mayor gets a new job as street sweeper."

    Amazing. No more breakdowns in flood control.

    What do they call that ... accountability ? It actually works. You guys might try it some day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Humans do the same thing. Watch dancers or ice skaters spinning some time - they hold their heads still in relation to some point, then spin it around quickly back to that same point again when their body has turned almost a full circle. It's called 'spotting'. Even Nureyev
    Skaters do that in spins but not in jumps because the rotation is too fast to make a compensating head movement. In a snap rolling or spinning plane I can generally see where the horizon is but not clearly. The first time I snapped a Ryan PT 22 I went around twice, not because I didn't know it but because I wasn't prepared for that fast a roll.

    Bill

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  20. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    A person who was shown only the balls up high could easily count them, and a person who was only shown the balls on the floor could also easily count them.

    But, as the balls are falling, and all are in mid-air, it is very difficult to count them.

    I assume there is a name for this phenomenon, probably within the field of mathematics or statistics or?
    The name for that phenomenon is probably not in math, but in psychology.

    It's kinda like "chunking" where you group items together to make them easier for the brain to deal with them. Like phone numbers separated by delimiters 123-456-7890.

    It's easier to count the balls at the top or the bottom because they follow a pattern. Even if you froze them in mid-air and gave someone all the time they needed to count them, it would still be harder (and take longer) to count them in random positions as opposed to the orderly pattern in the egg crate positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    Men are better at seeing motion in their peripheral vision. Helps in hunting and avoiding predators. Men can distinguish 200 colors. Women can distinguish 1,000 colors. Helps in only picking ripe fruit and discarding food that has gone off.
    Bill D
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    I read that trump is so good at golf that he won one tournament a year before the course even existed. he has also claimed wins for some tournaments that never happened claiming he would have won if they had played. Same idea as fantasy football I guess.
    Bil lD
    Bill, do you notice how your sig comes out about half the time? I'm just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1yesca View Post
    sort of like getting a government [tax payer funded you know payed for by you and me]funded grant to see how meany times a grasshopper can ejaculate in one day ! expiring minds want to know ! ya some woody Allan type prof gets his flunky that he is hosing on the side to do all the work so he can take all the credit come to think of it these are the same people that tell all there students that so called capitalist are bad but they drive there land rovers , mb , wmw and live in the gated areas yup it a great gig if you can get it
    So intelligent, educated people terrify you...

    Sad...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post

    Power walls and load leveling are not an option when you're consuming 85MW in a process plant. It's all but impossible to gain or shed 10 MW to satisfy a power company when you are first and foremost attuned to the needs of the process.
    But you can collect data as to what processes were occurring over a given month, and what the resultant power costs were. You can also track basic energy costs over time (I'm sure there's collected data sources that can be accessed), and start determining if having your own power generation capacity makes sense (solar, wind, whatever).

    At that point you can work out agreements with the power company about what they're pay for excess generation, or even offer power to neighboring companies.

    Now you'll tell me that CA rules don't allow that...


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