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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    Oh and there's no such thing as treated lumber.
    You mean because the word "pressure" or "heat" was left out ? That's a bit like saying there is no city in SC named Hilton Head because one leaves out "Island"

    As to what for Spud to do.... I don't know...last machine I exported that needed full crate I actually paid a certified export crate builder to build a crate... but the damn crate fell apart at some point and the shipping company was trying to put the blame on me for that. This when I had no clue how it actually happened....could have been their forklift driver dropping it....but the crate was less than impressive so I wouldn't doubt it was the crate's fault. So frustrating when I could build a proper crate from a combination of solid wood and plywood but can't actually do it because of the solid wood issues. And yet the "stamped" wood is the same wood you get at Lowes in reality... just heat treated lumber...nothing magical about it except it comes with "paperwork".

  2. #22
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    By the way:

    Should I used lumber to build the sides of the crate or OSB? If I build a very sturdy 2"x4" or 2"x6" frame for the crate , does it matter ?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    By the way:

    Should I used lumber to build the sides of the crate or OSB? If I build a very sturdy 2"x4" or 2"x6" frame for the crate , does it matter ?
    Use OSB for nothing crate wise...flimsy stuff...in fact that's the one that fell apart I mentioned earlier was OSB. I did build a full crate for a Schaublin 135 lathe shipped to Switzerland a few years ago and built the entire crate from 3/4" high quality 9 ply plywood...no framework needed if the plywood is void free and quality stuff....I used glue and screws....and had braces inside as well. Buyer had to pay accordingly but it arrived safe and sound.

    Re the 2 x lumber...thought you couldn't use solid wood ? You can try and sneak it on the inside but risky if they discover it. But if you do it make sure the "heat treated" stamp that comes on most 2x4's is clearly visible.

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    IPSM 15 states heat treatment at 65 *c for 30 mins iirc, so commercial KD conifer timber will qualify. However, the rub is the certification and verification aspect. Much of the machine skids that arrive here in NZ from USA and Canada are made from commercial KD building timber, no IPSM stamp but the KD markings are in good standing. Australia is very different and generally one needs to follow the songbook or risk having the product impounded or repacked at considerable expense (and damage).
    If you can find or buy a good clean suitable pallet that has an IPSM 15 stamp for your country, use it as the basis of your crate with quality plywood; a pallet does not need to be retreated and restamped unless it has been exported. Remember, no bark, no dirt, no rot and no insect damage and the stamp is in good standing.
    LVL lumber is structurally much better than osb and great for stringers in a pallet. Use spiral or ring shank nails and screws for everything, avoid drywall or chipboard screws at all costs.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Use OSB for nothing crate wise...flimsy stuff...in fact that's the one that fell apart I mentioned earlier was OSB. I did build a full crate for a Schaublin 135 lathe shipped to Switzerland a few years ago and built the entire crate from 3/4" high quality 9 ply plywood...no framework needed if the plywood is void free and quality stuff....I used glue and screws....and had braces inside as well. Buyer had to pay accordingly but it arrived safe and sound.

    Re the 2 x lumber...thought you couldn't use solid wood ? You can try and sneak it on the inside but risky if they discover it. But if you do it make sure the "heat treated" stamp that comes on most 2x4's is clearly visible.
    So plywood better than OSB? I had thought OSB was stiffer so better.

    I am kinda surprised the crate stays intact without framing lumber and just metal brackets. How much weight could such a crate withstand when said weight is placed on top? I have no idea how shippers stack such crates in Shipping containers.

    This machine must be around the same dimensions as the 135 but way lighter.

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    When using OSB its not a bad idea to think of it as tempered glass! Immense transverse strength but rather brittle in the thickness direction although it will take considerable static or slowly applied load and is resistant to punch through up to a very definite, and often surprisingly high, point. Distance between supports has an enormous effect on its behaviour. If engineered correctly it can produce structures rather stronger than common grades of plywood but its not a forgiving material. The glue holding the bits together is brittle with a very small bend angle before fracture and once it goes it goes.

    I'd not use it for anything other than cladding basic timber structures and similar. My rules are no wider than 2 ft between battens, no longer than 3 ft. My shop is 4 x 2 framing with OSB both sides and shiplap cladding built to those rules and its strong. As a good whack with a sledgehammer proved! Insisted on having my overgarage extension built that way. Albeit on 6 x 2 with Recitel insulation board filling despite doubts of builder man and building inspector. Sledgehammer again and they admitted it was probably stronger than brick'n blocks. Makes me wonder if some sort of home brew composite could be arrange with OSB skins about an inch apart and something solid but light in-between. Honeycomb structures are notoriously strong so maybe home brew with 1/2" rails on 4" centres. Have seen such being made on a walk past basis so it has been done. Heavy and much hassle tho'.

    Clive

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    Whole discussion has me asking why all the restrictions on what type of lumber one uses to construct the crates?

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    Allowing any old lumber to be used increases risks of bugs, tree diseases, creepy crawlies and whatever being imported along with the legitimate contents of the crate. Typical ocean crossing voyage time is pretty well matched to reproductive time of smaller beasties. Probably no predators in the container either.

    Setting things up so as professionally made crates are the usual way should mean that all are well enough made not to collapse en-route. Human nature to minimise cost of aone time use crate. OK folk like us will all do at least a workmanlike job but if any Tom, Dick or Harriet can have a go some are bound to be more than a little inadequate. This would have been more important in pre container days when stuff was stacked in ship holds.

    Also more jobs for the regulators.

    Clive
    Last edited by Clive603; 09-24-2016 at 04:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doug8cat View Post
    Whole discussion has me asking why all the restrictions on what type of lumber one uses to construct the crates?


    compliant wood is heat treated, kills an insects, eggs etc in the wood.

    We crate very large items and use dunnage inside containers to secure loads frequently for international shipments. Lumber comes from a local supplier and is certified - I'd phone the nearest lumber outlet and ask if they have it and if not where I could get it.

    We've never be asked for more than our certification that the wood used is certified. The crating is large enough that is has to build around the equipment, you couldn't really buy it in. If asked we would have to produce the vendors certs for the wood. If you're selling to the big guys who demand this sort of stuff, you won't be for long if you F around with it.....besides faking a cert or stamp isn't a slap on the wrist, its fraud and jail time (actually happened to someone i know for faking a mill test report)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    compliant wood is heat treated, kills an insects, eggs etc in the wood.

    We crate very large items and use dunnage inside containers to secure loads frequently for international shipments. Lumber comes from a local supplier and is certified - I'd phone the nearest lumber outlet and ask if they have it and if not where I could get it.

    We've never be asked for more than our certification that the wood used is certified. The crating is large enough that is has to build around the equipment, you couldn't really buy it in. If asked we would have to produce the vendors certs for the wood. If you're selling to the big guys who demand this sort of stuff, you won't be for long if you F around with it.....besides faking a cert or stamp isn't a slap on the wrist, its fraud and jail time (actually happened to someone i know for faking a mill test report)
    Out here it doesn't work like that , there is no "certified wood" per see. The certification/IPPC Stamp is applied to any crate built of dimensional lumber after the whole crate is heat treated . Which also means the crate (broken down into its constituent sides)must fit inside the heat-treatment chamber.

    If any American is aware of lumber retailers selling "certified lumber" I would very much like to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doug8cat View Post
    Whole discussion has me asking why all the restrictions on what type of lumber one uses to construct the crates?
    Clive had it--preventing the spread of insects and diseases that can damage the timber industry. The Asian long horned beetle and the emerald ash borer are invasive bugs that have infested American forests and probably cost billions in damages. They are thought to have arrived in untreated pallets. USDA ERS -
    Regulating Agricultural Imports To Keep Out Foreign Pests and Disease


    Think of them as undocumented illegal aliens

    Any nation with a timber industry will have such controls.

    The reason you probably can't buy treated timber with a stamp is that the treatment is usually a heat treat, no residual effect. So after a while, treated timber laying around the lumber yard can get re-infested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Farmer View Post
    The reason you probably can't buy treated timber with a stamp is that the treatment is usually a heat treat, no residual effect. So after a while, treated timber laying around the lumber yard can get re-infested.
    Although it seems counterintuitive, a treated and stamped pallet which is secondhand may be reused and exported from the country which issued the stamp without retreatment. All it needs is the stamp from the country of export- it doesn't matter if it has been sitting outside for a month or more. This reflects the risks of hidden borers etc which rely on green or poorly dried timber to survive. Heat, processing and methyl bromide sort these issues, hence their use. MB is a dirty word in many circles but it's very useful, mainly because it's so destructive to living things.

    If wood packaging is buggy or dirty or rotten then it will in theory be stopped irrespective, solid or plywood. Reality is that a small fraction of risks are picked up, countries, exporters and types of goods are targeted as high risk, and that money talks.

    You can buy timber with a stamp and certificate, only that many who do this work won't sell small quantities- it's simply not worth it. It's also somewhat expensive for what is essentially sub grade timber.

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    I was just at Menards (our largest big box store) and they sell Heat-Treated lumber with a stamp saying " HT" . The employee said it complied with export laws. But I am 99% sure it won't have the IPPC stamp on it.

    Which brings me to the question: if the lumber is Heat-Treated and a stamp attests to this then what is the difference between this garden variety Heat Treated lumber and Lumber that is Heat-Treated and has the IPPC stamp . The employee also said the Heat-Treatment killed bugs/insects/larvae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Out here it doesn't work like that , there is no "certified wood" per see. The certification/IPPC Stamp is applied to any crate built of dimensional lumber after the whole crate is heat treated . Which also means the crate (broken down into its constituent sides)must fit inside the heat-treatment chamber.

    If any American is aware of lumber retailers selling "certified lumber" I would very much like to know.
    a lot of stuff is just too big to do anything but have skid and crate built around it, ie one unit that fills the container......and how do you deal with dunnage?

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    I've had several smaller crates built this year(20 x 30 x 36 inch) for air freight overseas. Just under $200 apiece to my dimensional sketch. I specify the size needed (inside) and the weight of the contents and let them decide on the appropriate materials needed. For this price, I received the crate made from 3/4 ply, two dividers 30 x 36 x 1/2 ply and one 8ft 2x4 w/ the special stamping on it (I needed it for small pieces for blocking inside the crate. Crate itself only had 2 stampings on the exterior - apparently that is all that the regulation requires.

    Many of the companies that do crating will come onsite to build the crate around the item to be shipped if it is large in size.

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    We have been able to buy "wheat stamped" 2x4's and 1x6's from a local lumberyard, but we have to purchase it by the bundle. They put the stamp on each end of the boards, and on at least one face. The problem is that once you cut the boards up, you will end up with boards that have no marking on them. As i recall the regulation (probably different by country), each individual board has to have a visible stamp on it. Our shipping people have told us not to worry about this and just make sure that at least one wheat stamp is visible on each face of the crate. So far thats been working for us.

  18. #37
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    for what its worth - my brand new okuma turning center showed up in an all steel crate........may be simpler and more robust to fabricate steel than deal with all the BS on the treated wood.

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    Wouldn't PSL studs be exempt if OSB is? You could frame it with them, if that's the case.


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