Possibly OT: Question on utiltizing Ultrasonic sonic generator+ transducer

Possibly OT: Question on utiltizing Ultrasonic generator+ transducer

Are there any off the shelf packages that provide the guts of an ultra sonic cleaner, sans the tub/reservoir ?


Could a metal , ceramic or plastic utility sink or parts washer - of around 20 gallons - serve as the reservoir for ultrasonic cleaning ? If you used the guts of a commerical grade ultra sonic cleaner, could you utilize your own reservoir ?

How does one size the generator and transducer required for a given volume ? For example: if I used a 5 gallon pail, could I get by with 110 volt ultrasonic generator but if I was using a 20 gallon sink then the only generators that would provide a satisfactory result would require 220 single phase or more power?

Would like to use my utility sink to clean parts. No possibility of setting up a dedicated ultrasonic cleaner of similar volume at the moment. Any commerical quality ultrasonic cleaner that can be immersed in a sink when needed , and easily removed when not needed ? I do see that Amazon has what is claimed to be a portable ultrasonic cleaner, but the low prices make it seem like a gimmick.

In the lab, we often use ultrasonic generators with a separate transducer probe that is dipped into liquid not only for cleaning, but more often for disintegrating bacteria to get at the innards. Similar devices, often with higher power, are made for plastic welding. They are also more readily available and cheaper: 600 watt units sell for about $500 on Amazon. I don’t see any obvious reason these couldn’t also be used with the tip of the transducer submerged, but I don’t have one and haven’t tried it. The plastic welder versions run at 28kHz, while the lab ones I’m used to run at about 60kHz. The frequency affects the cleaning action, with low lower frequencies being more aggressive and hence more likely to damage delicate parts (How Do I Know What Ultrasonic Cleaner Frequency I Need? | Omegasonics). Most of the typical integral ultrasonic bath units seem to run at 40kHz, and provide about 20 watts of ultrasonic power per liter. 600 watts should be good for 7 or 8 gallons. Used lab units can be had on eBay (Branson is one common brand), but typically sell for about $1,000 and are rated at 200 or 400 watts.

The construction of the probes is interesting. They consist of s stack of piezoelectric disks with a hole through the center. A steel shaft runs through the center bore, and the disks are compressed by tensioning the shaft via a nut on one end. The tensioned shaft stenches and relaxes as the disks expand and contact due the voltage applied to them by the generator. Different tips are screwed to end of the shaft depending on the job.

Jon

Thanks for the reply.

I have been looking at auctions for ultrasonic cleaners for awhile now. The ones with a reservoir the size of a utility sink seem to be 220 volt single phase or 3 phase. Benchtop good quality ones do come in 110 volt version.

Branson and Crest are two brands that come to mind.


What brand and model is the ultrasonic generator and transducer in your lab?

Is there something special about the bath / reservoir of the large floor model ultrasonic cleaners ? Some of them have multiple baths. I looked at the diagram of benchtop models and it looks like the transducer is affixed to the bottom of the bath. Is there any difference between an immersible probe style transducer and one that is fixed to the underside of a bath / reservoir ?

What jdgoguen is referring too was called a cell disrupter when I was working in labs. It broke up the cells so that the cavorting beasties inside could be had. Something like that may work for you using the same principal as jdgoguen described. I have never been inside one but the principal is not complicated.

I’ve had several over the years. All were Branson or Heat Systems. I know how they work because I had to repair one when it failed Turing a late night experiment back when I was a post-doc. Too many hours invested to let it go. I thought the transducer was electromagnetic, like a voice coil motor. Was I surprised when I opened it up, took of the tensioning nut, and all the solid disks fell out! Once I realized that it was piezoelectric, I had to figure out the polarity of all the loose disks. Turned out to be easy with an ohm meter. When I reassembled it, I was worried about getting the correct torque on the tensioning net. This problem solved itself: as I tightened the nut, the beast discharged a huge spark that made drop the wrench! Same principle as the little snap trigger grill igniters, nut with an enormously larger piezo generator. Afraid to torque it more, I went back to the experiment and the thing worked. When I later related this to a Bronson tech, he was amazed: he said the torque had to be within a very narrow range for the thing to work.

In the integral bath units that I’ve seen the disks are mounted directly on the bottom of the stainless tub. I don’t know how they are attached.

google "immersible ultrasonic transducer" images and look for stainless box units meant to me immersed in a bath to be agitated, power unit is a separate box, multiple "boxes" can be used in a single bath, and would be even preferable for larger parts to lessen shadowing

tension in the bolt holding the pack together is just that - tension to hold it together, there is no magic there involved, the rod simply holds the mass at the other end attached to the working end with the contracting/expanding disks in the middle, all that, when properly tuned, generates a standing wave in the probe - at that frequency the motion amplitude of the probe tip is maximized - which then generates the waves in the liquid which then disrupts the cell membranes, in the cleaner setup however, there is no fixed resonance frequency, the driver simply acts against the mass in the back end to move the side/bottom wall of the tank making it a speaker essentially, and since there are many variables there, the power unit is designed in a way to automatically adjust the frequency (within the designated range - aprox 24 or 40 kHz) till maximum power output is reached, that is all there is to it

crossthread said:

What jdgoguen is referring too was called a cell disrupter when I was working in labs. It broke up the cells so that the cavorting beasties inside could be had. Something like that may work for you using the same principal as jdgoguen described. I have never been inside one but the principal is not complicated.

Click to expand...

So it is not technically an ultrasonic cleaner, similar to ones used for cleaning parts, but in principle works the same?

These ultrasonic you all used in the labs, will they clean a part about as well as your typical ultrasonic cleaner aimed towards the machine tool or jewelery field ?

The lab versions are typically used with relatively small volumes, so the power density can be very high compared to that in a large bath, so much so that cooling is needed to keep the temperature down. This high power is required for disrupting some biological structure like bacterial cell walls. In a larger volume the power density will be less, but comparable to that in a typical cleaning bath if power/volume ratio is similar.

jdgoguen said:

The lab versions are typically used with relatively small volumes, so the power density can be very high compared to that in a large bath, so much so that cooling is needed to keep the temperature down. This high power is required for disrupting some biological structure like bacterial cell walls. In a larger volume the power density will be less, but comparable to that in a typical cleaning bath if power/volume ratio is similar.

Click to expand...

Can you provide the brand name and model? I often see lab equipment at various auctions, so I can keep a look out for this.

As I noted earlier, the lab ones I’m familiar with are Branson and Heat Systems. I’m sure there are others. I haven’t bought one in years, so don’t know the current offerings. There are several versions of the interchangeable fittings that attach to the the transducers. I would look for the cylindrical flat ended types that are about 1/2 inch diameter or larger for use with a large volume. There are many tapered types made for use in small volume vessels. They won’t work well with a large volume. There’s also a version called a cup horn that we use in high containment situations where the vessel must remained sealed during disruption. These are used with transducer inverted and the vibrating cup is filled with circulating chilled water. The sealed vessel is immersed in the cup.

Amazon is selling this portable ultrasonic cleaner. Is this cylindrical transducer similar in concept to the ones you used?




Box type transducer





Branson transducer. Says it is for a sonifer, don't know what that is. Specs make it seem like it is for ultrasonic welding.
Branson - 4C15, 40KHz Converter for SLPe and SLPt Sonifiers

When I googled "sonifier" I got a link for an ultrasonic cell disruptor
https://www.toolots.com/kesheng-ks-...1JXGsyoRwfSXbnrOy6TQzg1fxv2anlyhoCBKAQAvD_BwE

The ones I’ve used look like Branson 4C15. The piece shown in that picture is just the transducer and requires a generator to work. The one in the first picture is the same concept, but is low power (~70 watts). I have no experience with the box type, but it would probably work well if the power is sufficient. One potential advantage of the probe type is that you could move it around inside the bath to concentrate power at stubborn points.

Spud said:

Are there any off the shelf packages that provide the guts of an ultra sonic cleaner, sans the tub/reservoir ?


Could a metal , ceramic or plastic utility sink or parts washer - of around 20 gallons - serve as the reservoir for ultrasonic cleaning ? If you used the guts of a commerical grade ultra sonic cleaner, could you utilize your own reservoir ?



Would like to use my utility sink to clean parts.

Click to expand...

Check out this vid, he gives links for the parts, no idea of quality, but looks like what you want to do. Forget everything you know about RUST REMOVAL! - YouTube