Properties of 52100 annealed condition? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Moore View Post
    So one question for those who may know, how tough is annealed 52100, will it break apart with a sharp blow or will it bend and stretch? I have an offcut washer but have’t tested it yet.
    I thought you said this was a thrust washer ? How will it be seeing any shock or tensile loads ?

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    I said I was guessing that it may have been a shock event that broke the washer. Once the diff wears,after 20+ years of hard work, there may have been enough space for the side gear to slam against the washer.
    Things will move around when you slam the machine into reverse with a full load in the bucket. This machine has a torque converter shuttle shift so no gear change needed to reverse.

    The broken washer is very brittle, I snapped a small piece off with a light tap in the vice.
    I don’t know what heat treat the original washers had but if heat treating makes the steel more brittle then maybe annealed would be better. It may wear faster but it probably wouldn’t shatter.

    It seems like a very high quality steel and my gut instinct says it would be fine as is and I could skip the heat treat reducing the chance of making brittle steel. Given everything else is very worn on the machine it will probably outlast me anyway.

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    I would be keen to see the spark test results on that material
    Long red stuff - not much in the "burst" department. After twenty years of sitting around these are still full of oil

    20210516_165501.jpg20210516_165501crop.jpg

    (assumed to be the stuff linked to in Post #15)
    Last edited by johnoder; 05-16-2021 at 08:36 PM.

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    The big shock event comes when the boofhead driving the tractor sees one wheel spinning in the mud and plants his #12 boot on the diff lockout pedal......And ,my opinion the first Case 580 diff I saw busted "gee its no bigger than a car"......The Massey 50 backhoe diff would be twice the size of a Case.......Later Case drives went to planetary hubs ,but for some reason only five bolt wheel mounting ...more problems.

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    John and John,
    Thanks for the great photos of the spark test. 52100 is quite dIfferent.
    Sometimes it is hard to tell if the sparks are the same so I usually hold both pieces on the wheel at the same time so I can compare, it works well.

    Definitely some boofheads running the old girl I bought.......they didn’t know what a grease gun was for among many other issues.

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    If its got wet brakes ,you gotta use proper (costly) Case wet brake oil,or it will get up a horrible chattering vibration every time you hit the brakes.....Also got to change the oil when the chattering starts.

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    JohnK,
    No wet brakes on my machine.
    Any experience with 52100 or are you trying to derail my thread?

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    Sorry about stating how we have fixed problems looks like a poor designed differental most large peices ar not constructed like that ever see a sqhd? Or ih 1066 or john deere diff? Thats what i was thinking. And im not from the damn island pm wont take the change for some reason


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Moore View Post
    It seems like a very high quality steel and my gut instinct says it would be fine as is and I could skip the heat treat ...
    I don't actually agree with that but if it's what you want to do, at least skip the steel-on-steel thing and go with a bearing bronze. Those have a better record in plain bearing applications.

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    so who wants to take a guess on the fracture toughness of annealed 52100 (220hb)?, charpy, izod, k1c, g (kj/m2), j, whatever.

    ill start: k1c= 150 mpa/√m. (shot in the dark.)

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    Charpy may be very low ......1%Cr/1% C Stubbs silver steel has a very low toughness in annealed state......hence the old "snaps like a carrot " saying.

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    I did a destruction test today on an offcut washer that was just 0.055 thick.
    Bent it 90° in the vice, then bent it back to straight and 90° the other way. It took 5 or 6 bends for it to finally break.
    It certainly did not "snap like a carrot".
    As I stated earlier the heat treated washer did snap like a carrot, actually worse than a carrot as even a carrot bends a fair bit before it snaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbowerks View Post
    Sorry about stating how we have fixed problems looks like a poor designed differental most large peices ar not constructed like that ever see a sqhd? Or ih 1066 or john deere diff? Thats what i was thinking. And im not from the damn island pm wont take the change for some reason
    Turbo,
    I think your idea is a good one just not necessary for this application. Like I said earlier this is the first diff I have ever taken apart so have no others for reference. I am going to do a decent job on the diff with new bearings and a new short side gear and new washers and cross my fingers that it holds up to the work I want to do with the machine.

    Send a request to admin and see if they can change the country for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Moore View Post
    I did a destruction test today on an offcut washer that was just 0.055 thick.
    Bent it 90° in the vice, then bent it back to straight and 90° the other way. It took 5 or 6 bends for it to finally break.
    It certainly did not "snap like a carrot".
    As I stated earlier the heat treated washer did snap like a carrot, actually worse than a carrot as even a carrot bends a fair bit before it snaps.
    you tested the work hardening properties rather than fracture toughness of the original material.

    my thoughts above were: mild steel has k1c around 140. high carbon content reduces k1c substantially. cleanliness (usually var) increases k1c up to twofold. so i came up with a guess of 150. (btw, for heat treated 52100 k1c=17.)

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    Dian,
    I am unsure how a thrust washer would be subject to conditions leading to a fracture? Can you explain?
    This washer is primarily a spacer, it does rotate but at very low speeds. It rotates at the difference between the wheels when turning a corner, multiplied by the gear reduction ratio. I could do the calcs but it will still be a very small number and not constant.
    Please keep posting, I really appreciate all the input.

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    im flattered your asking, but frankly ist been decades since i had a diff appart (torsen if remember). is it a spacer behind the axle/side gear?
    if so, the only reason i can think of would be residual stresses from a bad heat treat or simply too hard and brittle.

    edit: crystaline appearance would be an indication of intergranular fracture. again wrong heat treat and huge grains or "dirty" steel, leading to weakening of gain boundaries by seggregation of impurities or other processes. im afraid this doesnt help much in your situation.

    if i had to do this i would take 4340, where the properties are well known. (as opposed to 52100 in an other condition than bearing quality.)

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    Here you can see the side gear and the shim/washer.
    There are two side gears and these drive the bull gears for each axle.
    The shim is for setting the lash between the side gear and the 3 diff pinion gears.

    The existing broken shim is fairly easy to file but it is quite brittle and snaps easily.





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    Here is the image, copy and paste didn't work so I had to load it like a photo.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails casediff1.jpg  

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    Trying again to make the image larger.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-shot-2021-05-18-11.24.12-pm.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Moore View Post
    Trying again to make the image larger.
    On Windows ? Irfanview, very easy to resize and also change the dots-per-inch (DPI) from 72 to like 200 or something, that way it won't get all grainy.

    On Mackletosh, can do in Preview.

    Crop also works in both programs, to cut a shot like that into more manageable pieces.


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