Question for Pros on prices

dave66 · Apr 4, 2019

I haven’t been here in a long time. Hope everybody is doing good.

Metal work is not my main thing, though my biz deals with it in terms of some products we make. I just had a quick question for shop people.

I attached a photo of a tube part we use on a product (unpolished). It’s 1 1/2” aluminum tube about 8” long. It has two hole sizes. 4 are through holes, and two are single side on the opposite axis, for technically a total of 10 holes. We drill these using a press, but it would be nice to have somebody else do it. We’d probably do a couple hundred at a time. Problem is… Anytime I’ve asked for a quote on this, I’m a bit put back by the price. Recently I tried, and out of the people who bothered to respond, the lowest I got was $35 per. Which seems a bit high for drilling ten holes in a tube. The product itself is only $160 and has two of these. That would put the cost for just those two pieces at close to $70. I believe the place was going to use a tube laser, but… Still. We’re in CA. Are places just holding out for big $$$ aerospace biz work and don’t want to be bothered with stuff like this, or what?

partsproduction · Apr 4, 2019

You may have to bite the bullet on a very short run so they will know you are serious about having them made, then negotiate based on their time study. Drilling holes in aluminum seems pretty easy/fast but this depends on tolerance and the amount of deburring, if you have been driling them on a drill press or mill you know about hand deburring time.
I don't know what other shops do but I guess time high and add to it for bids, so they may find their own price to be high and that they can afford to lower it.
No one wants a job that brings red ink to the ledger, over and over again.

Milland · Apr 4, 2019

Is that the part complete, or just taking your tube and drilling it? For complete, you're buying the material, cutting to length, chamfering edges, then fixturing it, drilling multiple sizes and sides, then cleanup, and packaging ready for shipment (I'm leaving out actual shipping costs).

If you can revise your part to only need drilling in one plane then there'd be room to cut down the costs due to simpler/faster drilling setup. Ditto just one hole size.

michiganbuck · Apr 4, 2019

A tough part, inside burrs, fragile to work with and package, so many shops don't even want that kind of work for a short run, or charge high to overcome the problems. cut off, make 10 holes , 10 de-burrs add it up. Time study at your process and see man hours per part and then times $70 or more.
A small shop or one/few up guy might charge $25 per hour and do a great job ..but those guys are hard to find.

it is an easy job so most anybody could do it....No I don't want it.

twin staged · Apr 4, 2019

What does your fixture look like for these? What is it costing you in house currently?

Rudd · Apr 4, 2019

Are you walking in there with drawings that don't have tolerances on the dimensions, or tighter than needed tolerances?

strokersix · Apr 4, 2019

Can you punch the holes? Might be some distortion depending on your punch design but maybe that is ok.

Roper Whitney hand punch:

ROPER WHITNEY Hole Punch, 3-1'/'4 in Throat, 17'/'32 in Hole - 22JK58'|'XX - Grainger!

isaac338 · Apr 4, 2019

Rudd said:
Are you walking in there with drawings that don't have tolerances on the dimensions, or tighter than needed tolerances?

Or worse, no drawings at all? I can see any shop quoting high on a "make it like this" kind of part as a CYA against rework when it turns out the tolerances were actually important.

Delw · Apr 4, 2019

not to mention what is the angle tol. with out those most consider + or - 1º thats alot of fixturing to do to make sure everything is indexed correctly.
4th axis could knock them out but you would need to make a arbor type fixture and it could do them burr free.

with out a print most people will charge high just like others said to cover there ass.

dave66 · Apr 5, 2019

No I did submit a drawing with dimensions. I also specifically contacted a few places that had a tube laser, because from the work I saw, I felt like those would be fine as-is... We could just finish it ourselves and it would be good enough. So I wasn't expecting parts 100% done, out of a box. One place that has one nearby is also a supply, so I go in there fairly often. I've yet to go in there and see it being used. They had one of the highest quotes. I mean, I get stuff has a point where it's not worth the trouble, or if you don't really need the work because you're already busy. But when a very expensive machine is sitting there doing nothing most of the time, I'd think people would be a little more flexible. btw I'm not including the setup fee or programing. That was extra.

The way we do them is put the pieces in block clamps that are made for bike frame work. A back fence centers, and then there's an end stop. You insert spacers for each hole distance from the end... and then you can flip it on it's side to do the cross holes. It works pretty well, just time consuming. Bit sizes are F and 27. I guess we'll just keep doing them.

Mike1974 · Apr 5, 2019

dave66 said:
No I did submit a drawing with dimensions. I also specifically contacted a few places that had a tube laser, because from the work I saw, I felt like those would be fine as-is... We could just finish it ourselves and it would be good enough. So I wasn't expecting parts 100% done, out of a box. One place that has one nearby is also a supply, so I go in there fairly often. I've yet to go in there and see it being used. They had one of the highest quotes. I mean, I get stuff has a point where it's not worth the trouble, or if you don't really need the work because you're already busy. But when a very expensive machine is sitting there doing nothing most of the time, I'd think people would be a little more flexible. btw I'm not including the setup fee or programing. That was extra.

The way we do them is put the pieces in block clamps that are made for bike frame work. A back fence centers, and then there's an end stop. You insert spacers for each hole distance from the end... and then you can flip it on it's side to do the cross holes. It works pretty well, just time consuming. Bit sizes are F and 27. I guess we'll just keep doing them.

Also, keep in mind you are doing them "at cost" (more or less for the product, if that makes sense). Job shops want/need to make a profit on it. Maybe consider having a better fixture designed and built instead of the actual parts, that way you can keep the machining in house but be faster?

Hazzert · Apr 5, 2019

Instead of having the parts made for you I'd suggest spending the money on a fixture with drill bushings that would let you do the part complete without the shuffling. You could probably do a part in a couple minutes a piece at a higher quality level than you're doing now.

Edit: beat to the punch by Mike

DDoug · Apr 5, 2019

dave66 said:
No I did submit a drawing with dimensions.

Well, let's see that drawing.

twin staged · Apr 5, 2019

Already have a fixture in my head that would knock these out on a drill press and from the sounds of how you’re doing them they are pretty open on tolerance.

jrmach · Apr 6, 2019

you could pm me with an actual print,I believe I could do those a hell of a lot cheaper

Frederick Harvie · Apr 6, 2019

try a shop with a water jet with a tube cutting fixture. It seems to me it would take longer to change the part then to do the cutting. From my limited experience getting parts cut by water jet I think that in this area you could get the parts made for a great deal less than you have been quoted

Comatose · Apr 6, 2019

That looks like a live tooled lathe part to me.

Assuming the tolerances are somewhat loose, that's push, drill, part, maybe face after parting. Inch and a half tube that short can get deburred inside and out in the tumber. I ballpark a minute per, so maybe $3 each for machine time. Maybe $50 in consumables for a run of 200. Need to make some plugs for the bar feeder, so $50 in tooling. An hour to draw it, program it and prove it out so $200 there. Some time to check and pack.

So I figure a run of 200 should be about a grand plus the material and shipping costs.

But that's for 200 in a shot. If you wanted 20 just to see how it is, then $35 each doesn't sound out of line at all.

Now, if you have it speced with a tolerance or surface finish that suggests the shop will need to turn the outside and bore the inside to hit it, then yeah you're $35 easy.

No, I don't want the job either.

HuFlungDung · Apr 6, 2019

Somebody that wanted to do the job could likely make good money at $10 per each/ quantity 200, for the hole making. I know I could. And I wouldn't be doing it manually, because I have technology at hand. So maybe I spent $60K to get to that point, but I ain't paying for it on one job, either.

Milland · Apr 6, 2019

HuFlungDung said:
Somebody that wanted to do the job could likely make good money at $10 per each/ quantity 200, for the hole making. I know I could. And I wouldn't be doing it manually, because I have technology at hand. So maybe I spent $60K to get to that point, but I ain't paying for it on one job, either.

If I read this right ("for the hole making"), then I agree, $10ea would be fine. But if we're talking stock purchasing, cutting, hole cutting, deburring, cleaning, packaging - then I doubt it...

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