Air powered straight line sanders

I have been working on the restoration of a huge pipe organ. Actually, restoration may not be the correct term since the owner wants wood structure that was originally the typical mill finish like you see on 2X4s to become a furniture class one. We have most of the standard sanders, hand planes and a planer, but most of the work is done with straight line sanders as are common in auto body shops. We have two, a Sioux and and Air Tools Company Of America, both bought used. The ATCOA is a little smoother and consistent, but that can be just be individual condition. I keep the two set up with different grits. We need at least one more and possibly two, all hooked up so we can switch between grits as needed. This is going to be heavy use, all day for several years. I want new ones, American made, both from the "buy American" viewpoint, but even more so we can get service. No Asian garbage! The ATCOA lists for $275, lower prices online, the Ingersoll Rand goes for about $130, marked Made in USA on the box. Sioux doesn't seem to sell them anymore. The price is not the issue here, but whether it is worth the extra money. Does anyone have experience with either of these or comparable ones?

Bill

...A little experience here with straight lines...retired from auto collision (shop owner/Tech) after 40 years...My preference is with IR.All though you may want to have a look at their web site as to if you are really getting a TRUE made in the USA product or not...What I have found over the years is that it's not so much as the(GOD is going to get me for this ) made in USA or price etc as to if it is a Straight Line or an orbital...Never had much use for the stright lines as I have for the orbital.The straight lines have a tendency( if you have a brain fart and day dream for a shot second or two ) to gouge where as the orbital is very forgiving and produces a much more Superior finish.Look around for an orbital for your final sands .Not sure as to what to recommend at this point but I am sure there is a wide array of choices. price range should be some where around $75.00 to $125,00 I would say...Keep them well oiled but not OVER oiled and even the cheaper ones will last ya well over a year with every day use...Good Luck and let us know how you make out...Len

Len,

Thanks for the answer. We have an old style orbital that uses the long strips like the straight line, two random orbitals, and a hand belt sander. The big difference between what we are doing and body work is wood grain. We have to stay with it. The old orbital sander is useless. The random orbitals work well, but do not give the stock removal rate. This organ was built in 1927 for the Memphis Auditorium, pulled out of the building when they tore it down and stored in a warehouse, then shipped to Fenton, MO, in the process being handled with little concern for damage. We have to take out gouges like the one where there was about a #10 flat head screw on the ground and someone dropped a box that weighs several hundred pounds on it. Then I had to grind the wood down below the gouge. The belt sander takes the wood down rapidly but is extremely difficult to control to avoid grooves and if any of the original finish is present, the belt loads quickly. A straight line sander with 100 PSI and a 36 grit strip takes a while but leaves a reasonably straight surface. Sometimes this means several hours of continuous sanding. My hands are finally adapting and not swelling too badly, but hanging onto that thing is serious work. The reason for wanting more sanders is that some of the units are much too big to flip over when you want to do another side. You go through all the steps on the side that is up, then turn up another one. After that they get one coat of sealer and three coats of shellac, sanding between each. The shellac is heat sensitive and even vigorous hand sanding can make enough heat to cause balling. I use the Sioux with only enough air pressure to make it cycle and can gently sand much more area than I can by hand in the same time. I'll post some pictures.

Bill

I have an unused Hutchins 3800 2-3/4 x 15-3/4 air sander. I have had it for years and never needed it, so I would be glad to sell it for $125 including shipping. For some reason, it has no paper clamps with it. It is of course made in USA and they are still sold, so parts would be no problem. The paper clamp assembly is $15.43. I understand Hutchins is considered top of the line for this type of equipment.

It is an orbital long board sander, so not what you said you are looking for. Anyway, you might find that Hutchins makes a straight line sander.

And maybe the orbital would be useful once you get the shellac on the wood, since you are not sanding the wood grain at that point.

Hutchins Manufacturing Air Sanders

Email me at: lvanice at comcast.net

Larry

I know that you specified air, but you'd get a superior finish with an electric Festool RAS 150 coupled with their vacuum. I have owned one for several years...the discs last a long time because of the advanced dust collection, and I typically do not wear any breathing protection in use. I have even sanded projects in the dining room with no clean-up required afterward.

I believe the electric sander would be far cheaper to run too.

Festool sells belt sanders too. All of their tools are expensive, although the US prices are the lowest in the world (tools are German made)

Greg

With due appreciation for the people offering advice, the issue here is not what type of sander to use, but what brand to buy to add to the existing ones. We have the other types and use them where appropriate, but the air powered straight lines are the best for this application. The protocol is pretty well worked out, now we have to organize it for better throughput. Stopping to change grits, or even having to switch an air hose between sanders is a major time waster when you have to do it every few minutes, so we are going to set up all the sanders we need with overhead reels, allowing a worker to just let one up and pull down another. I had an extra Quincy QT 15 compressor that a customer who went broke gave me instead of the money he owed me, so I have installed it at the site and can easily run several air tools at once. Most of the structure and many of the pipes of this 5000 pipe organ are wood, so we have an enormous amount of area to process. We already have a sanding station with fans pulling the dust through filters and also use a respirator, especially when removing old finish and 83 years of dirt. Nothing else comes close to the varnish removal rate with these sanders except running the board through a thickness planer, not practical with large assemblies.

I will try to get some pictures tomorrow. I am presently working on a pressure regulator that is 4' wide, 8' long and 2' deep, made of 2" thick wood. The "diaphragm" is 4' square with a leather bellows and held down by 6 large springs. It regulates to 1/2 PSI at gawd only knows how many CFM.

Thanks for the input,

Bill

L Vanice said:

I have an unused Hutchins 3800 2-3/4 x 15-3/4 air sander. I have had it for years and never needed it, so I would be glad to sell it for $125 including shipping. For some reason, it has no paper clamps with it. It is of course made in USA and they are still sold, so parts would be no problem. The paper clamp assembly is $15.43. I understand Hutchins is considered top of the line for this type of equipment.

It is an orbital long board sander, so not what you said you are looking for. Anyway, you might find that Hutchins makes a straight line sander.

And maybe the orbital would be useful once you get the shellac on the wood, since you are not sanding the wood grain at that point.

Hutchins Manufacturing Air Sanders

Email me at: lvanice at comcast.net

Larry

Click to expand...

Larry, your model 3800 is an orbital. The model 2000 is the straight line sander. Hutchins makes the best sanders, by far, of anyone making similar sanders.

Sounds like Bill wants the straight line, and the model 2000 Hutchins is the best one of those I've ever seen. The difference in the Hutchins and other straight line sanders is the Hutchins moves fore and aft while the rest of them have motion more accurately described as slamming fore and aft to one degree or another.

Lots of shops use stick on or hook and loop paper on their long board sanders these days, so the lack of paper clamps might not be an issue for many potential buyers. Your price on the 3800 is excellent. I've had one of them for about 20 yrs. Its seen a lot of use and never gives any trouble.

Link with price on the Hutchins 2000 http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/hut2000.html

Interesting comments. The Hutchins is the first I have seen that isn't an ATCOA clone, which go from Harbor Freight on sale for $30 to $275 for the genuine article. Our patron is investing way over a million in the project, so the issue is performance, not a few dollars difference. The ones I have can be brutal to use. There have been days that my arthritic right hand hurt so much that I could hardly drive home. A smoother running one would be worth the price from my own pocket if our guy balks at the expenditure. Exactly the sort of info I am looking for.

Thanks,
Bill

Pics

Here are some pictures. The large box is the 1/2 PSI regulator and the thing that looks somewhat like a window frame is the "diaphragm". The openings allow access to the valve. The next pic is of two smaller regulators with typical damage. This is minor compared to some of it. We sand down, fill, splice in pieces, plug holes and anything else that is needed. Then we apply a French polish by hand. I think I could do as well with my positive pressure filtered air spray room, but the customer signs the paychecks. The last is a couple of pipes. They are 20' long and folded, basically megaphones for notes so low pitched that they are out of the range of human hearing and are there to shake the building. This organ has 73 ranks, a rank being a set of pipes that have a certain tone quality. These are played by five keyboards. Nothing about this is simple.

I found a Hutchins dealer in St. Louis, but they do not have a sander in stock and I am a bit reluctant to spend that much on something I can't see first. Is there anyone in the St. Louis area who has one I could look at?

Bill

That will be a great organ once installed.

For comparison, look at the one in Jasper's house, with 80 ranks. I have been there a number of times over the years, from before the organ wing was built, to last year for a concert by several ace organists. Jasper's house is all amazing, especially the steam engine collection. And he has some antique lathes, too. If you can get in there, you will never forget it. There are a few events open to the public each year.

The Sanfilippo Foundation - Theater Pipe Organ

Larry

grinding out dents from screws is going to be insanely difficult in my opinion and way to much stock likely has to be removed.

are you familiar with steaming out dents?

i have steamed out some serious dents, at least enough so that
i didn't have to grind half the board away.

btw, most body shops i am familiar with, buy decent quality airtools, never ever oil them, run them till they puke and simply drop them in the scrap pile and get a new one.

i don't see your project being any different, you won't want oil in the
airline or the tool anyway because all it will end up doing is fouling the work for finishing.

fwiw, ymmv

bob g

Over here due to hand arm vibration theres no way in hell that health and safety would let you run one for a whole shift straight, weeks at a time. Whilst swapping air hoses is a waste of time, it helps lessen the vibration induced damage your doing to your self. I think your realy doing more harm than you realise. I know a lot of people that have retired with arthritis. Its realy not good!

Ever thought of using a floor sander? They make belt and orbital varieties. Going to be bigger and faster than anything handheld.

L Vanice said:

That will be a great organ once installed.

For comparison, look at the one in Jasper's house, with 80 ranks. I have been there a number of times over the years, from before the organ wing was built, to last year for a concert by several ace organists. Jasper's house is all amazing, especially the steam engine collection. And he has some antique lathes, too. If you can get in there, you will never forget it. There are a few events open to the public each year.

The Sanfilippo Foundation - Theater Pipe Organ

Larry

Click to expand...

It was one such installation that set this off. Our guy saw it and decided he wanted one of his own. He is also trying to buy the organ in a Masonic lodge, which would make this the world's largest Kimball organ. This one is also getting a computer to play concerts automatically. Marlin Mackley, who is the primary contractor on the project both played and worked on this organ when it was in Memphis. Marlin has spent most of his career in the business and is extremely knowledgeable.

Bill

mobile_bob said:

are you familiar with steaming out dents?


i don't see your project being any different, you won't want oil in the
airline or the tool anyway because all it will end up doing is fouling the work for finishing.

bob g

Click to expand...

As a matter of fact, I raised the screw dent with moisture, used a belt sander to cut it down, and blended the grooves from the belt with a straight line. The screw example was just one. These pieces have suffered just about every injury that can be inflicted on wood. Besides the scars, there is water damage and burns from drop lights used by maintenance workers crawling around between pipes. When I overhauled the blower last winter, I had to beat out chain marks. As I have said before, between us we have a wide range of equipment and while my experience is mostly electronics and metal working, Marlin has many years of wood working. We just have to add another straight line sander.

When I oil one of these tools, I have to run it until it stops throwing oil or use it on something non-critical. I am installing a dryer on the compressor Saturday because I am getting tired of having water blown on the wood. Just part of the business.

Bill

adama said:

Over here due to hand arm vibration theres no way in hell that health and safety would let you run one for a whole shift straight, weeks at a time. Whilst swapping air hoses is a waste of time, it helps lessen the vibration induced damage your doing to your self. I think your realy doing more harm than you realise. I know a lot of people that have retired with arthritis. Its realy not good!

Click to expand...

I'm 75, ten years past retirement and have had arthritis for about as long as I can remember. Surprisingly, the work seems to loosen it up if I can stand the initial pain. I got vibration isolating gloves from WW Grainger, but they are useless. I am presently using lined gloves, which, of course, have thermal linings, not anti vibration ones. Part of my interest in the Hutchins sander is that Munchr implied that it would be smoother.

Bill

9100

sounds like a labor of love to resurrect that old girl, i had no idea
how mature to the biz you are, (trying to be polite here)

the first thing came to mind when you mentioned having to sand down rather large dents was my time spent learning how to use a large soldering iron and a folded wet paper towel to steam out some rather large and nasty dents,

the dude i learned from was a master craftsman, and i paid much attention to learning all i could from that man.

just offered it for what it was worth, because i can't imagine the amount of work it is going to take to sand out all sorts of damage you
are describing.

my hat is off to you and those that toil to restore those fine instruments so that future generations can enjoy the music they are able to make.

bob g

Wow I paid 225.00 back in 1981 for a Atcoa (viking) airfile. If you want fast and smooth operation the Atcoa is the one. If you want straightness the Hutchins is the one. A orbital Hutchins Is a nice smooth and straight cutting machne. I think the handle arraingment would be better also.

9100,

Those pictures sure bring back memories. I worked on some pipe organs about 30 years ago, but mostly restorative functional maintenance rather than the kind of stuff you are doing. We had our hands full just getting and keeping the doggone things working, never mind shinying 'em up.

You seem to have this thing worked out to your satisfaction, but I'll offer another suggestion nonetheless, based on my woodworking experience. Have you considered using a hand plane? A good sharp Bailey will remove lots of material with a modest amount of effort, and in reasonably adept hands will provide a very fine finish. More effort, but no vibration, no dust and no NOISE! Planes are plentiful and cheap in the used market (does anyone even make hand planes any more?) so giving one a try involves very little risk, except maybe becoming addicted to the feel of a good sharp plane slicing the wood away. Since most of the wood used in the pipe organs I have seen is some variety of very soft pine, the planing effort should be quite low.

steve

I'll throw a vote in for National Detroit. US made AND serviced. You WILL NOT get transfered to India for someone you can't understand and the will rebuild it AND return it within days. Rebuilds are normally because of neglect, not the tools design. I was shown these by a lifelong body man and have NOT had to have them worked on. My IR before lasted less than a year and the ND's are now on their 5th year.

Service is second to none.

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