Quincy Compressor 350 Pump - how many hours are too many? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Can you look at the motor itself and see if its rated for 220? Many are dual voltage
    Yes, motors are labeled 230/460 but the wires feeding them are 14g, so that tells me 460.

    I'm just wondering about the controller. Maybe I don't need the lead /lag but the pressure switch feeds into that panel.

    I need to spend some time figuring it out and/or figuring the next step.

  2. #22
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    So are those pumps model 350's? Or does FF350 mean something entirely not related to the model of the pump?

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    Ok, all that control is a pressure switch to a relay...

    Re wire motor to low voltage.

    Now look at the pressure switch to relay coil. the voltage will be wrong here. More than one way to do it but you need to get this back to what the relay coil needs. Get this right and you should be good to go.

    you should be fine with 14 gauge wiring inside the panel.

    PS. fusing will likely be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Ok, all that control is a pressure switch to a relay...

    Re wire motor to low voltage.

    Now look at the pressure switch to relay coil. the voltage will be wrong here. More than one way to do it but you need to get this back to what the relay coil needs. Get this right and you should be good to go.

    you should be fine with 14 gauge wiring inside the panel.

    PS. fusing will likely be wrong.
    Fuses will certainly be wrong, half the voltage = double the amperage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    So are those pumps model 350's? Or does FF350 mean something entirely not related to the model of the pump?
    Yes, they are 350s. It looks like an F350 = single QR-350 pump, FF350 = duplex QR-350 pumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Ok, all that control is a pressure switch to a relay...

    Re wire motor to low voltage.

    Now look at the pressure switch to relay coil. the voltage will be wrong here. More than one way to do it but you need to get this back to what the relay coil needs. Get this right and you should be good to go.

    you should be fine with 14 gauge wiring inside the panel.

    PS. fusing will likely be wrong.
    I had a bit of a further look at this and looked up the parts. I believe that the Cutler-Hammer contactor CE15BNS3 is rated for only 2HP at 230 Volts, so I'm thinking that would need to be replaced. Can I just substitute any old "AC Non-Reversing IEC Contactor" of the correct HP size here? The CH versions appear to be pretty high dollar.

    That said, can anyone tell me what the circled thing which is connected to the contactor is: here:ch.jpg

    I don't see that when I was looking up the part of the CH contactor. It appears to snap into the bottom of the contactor. There is also one on the other side, where that appears to be a replacement contactor (couldn't get the part number from that).

    I believe the transformers in the middle are taking two of the three phase lines and converting to 120V single phase. This power is used for the various controls (hour meter, relays, etc).

    So then the final mystery (for the moment) is the alternator switching. What keeps the state of who-started-first-last? Is that in the relays to the left/right of the transformers?

    Thanks,
    Don

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    Thermal/overload relay. Between contactor and motor, prevents motor from starting again if amperage draw was too high.

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    If your contactors are not big enough, its going to be easier to just gut that panel and start over. You'll re use nearly all the wire.

    Sure get any 5hp rated contactor. I'd suggest 110 coil. then just use one hot leg of your three phase.

    just set one compressor with a few PSI lower cut in pressure. that way, they will never both try to start together unless tanks are way down. if this is a problem, you'll need a timer relay to hold the other contactor out - I'm not seeing that in your pics.

    here's a contactor
    IEC Contactor: 18A, 120 VAC (60Hz)/110 VAC (50Hz) coil voltage (PN# SC-E04-110VAC) | AutomationDirect

    overload
    Thermal Overload Relay: 12-18A adjustable, for Fuji SC-E04(G), SC-E05(G) 43mm contactors (PN# TK26E-012) | AutomationDirect

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    If your contactors are not big enough, its going to be easier to just gut that panel and start over. You'll re use nearly all the wire.

    Sure get any 5hp rated contactor. I'd suggest 110 coil. then just use one hot leg of your three phase.

    just set one compressor with a few PSI lower cut in pressure. that way, they will never both try to start together unless tanks are way down. if this is a problem, you'll need a timer relay to hold the other contactor out - I'm not seeing that in your pics.

    here's a contactor
    IEC Contactor: 18A, 120 VAC (60Hz)/110 VAC (50Hz) coil voltage (PN# SC-E04-110VAC) | AutomationDirect

    overload
    Thermal Overload Relay: 12-18A adjustable, for Fuji SC-E04(G), SC-E05(G) 43mm contactors (PN# TK26E-012) | AutomationDirect
    Why re-invent the wheel?
    All he needs are the correct sized contactors and overloads. Might need to increase the size of the line wire to the contactors and to the motors depending on exactly what is there.

    The rest of the cabinet is fine except that the two control transformers will need the primary side fuses increased for 240V after they are switched to the lower voltage.

    The panel might be configured with a flip/flop storage relay but unlikely. Most likely that the compressor starts with the same compressor on initial power up. The two relays then act as a flip/flop to alternate next compressor to start while powered up.

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    Hi all,

    Thanks for the great information. I feel like I have a good fighting chance to get this thing going.

    That said, she is going to be sitting on the trailer for a while until I am able to get it into place. I'll check back in as I get moving forward.

    Thanks again for all the help.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by dschad View Post
    Yes, they are 350s. It looks like an F350 = single QR-350 pump, FF350 = duplex QR-350 pumps.
    GOOD Lord those things are going to lope along lazily for the next 100 years running at 5hp.
    You've bought yerself a life time supply of compressor goodness there.
    Maybe when you get them running you could post a video to youtube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    GOOD Lord those things are going to lope along lazily for the next 100 years running at 5hp.
    You've bought yerself a life time supply of compressor goodness there.
    Maybe when you get them running you could post a video to youtube.
    I hope so, although I may upgrade to 7.5 hp so maybe only 80 years. I am aiming to run a utility hammer which calls for about [email protected], but I don't know how duty cycle plays in. The twin 5s will make [email protected] and I have about 440 gallons of storage. So from the numbers I think it will work without pause for all but the most extreme cases. Although if it does maybe that means my hammer isn't big enough! If I run out of air I will go with the 7.5hps, or perhaps look at lower PSI but more cfm via pulley changes.

    I can't wait to hear the 400rpm chugging.

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    You said there was a transformer in the control circuit. It could be dual voltage. I don't recommend using 120VAC made from one leg of 230VAC 3 phase and neutral. If you do it will have to be connected with 5 wires. Ground and neutral can't be used together! Ground can NOT be current carrying so to use 120VAC from a 3 phase source it must be wired with 5 wires one being ground the other neutral all the way back to the main breaker panel. If not you will create a shock hazard! If the transformer is not dual voltage (input having 4 wires) simply replace it with another transformer being small are cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Froneck View Post
    You said there was a transformer in the control circuit. It could be dual voltage. I don't recommend using 120VAC made from one leg of 230VAC 3 phase and neutral. If you do it will have to be connected with 5 wires. Ground and neutral can't be used together! Ground can NOT be current carrying so to use 120VAC from a 3 phase source it must be wired with 5 wires one being ground the other neutral all the way back to the main breaker panel. If not you will create a shock hazard! If the transformer is not dual voltage (input having 4 wires) simply replace it with another transformer being small are cheap.
    Hi Froneck,

    I'm not completely clear on what you are saying regarding the ground/neutral wires (but I'm thinking it isn't a concern), here is the transformer: c2.jpg

    There are two wires from the three-phase (L1, L2) which attach to the right side of the transformer. The lowest wire (2) attaches to the contactor fourth terminal: 20190822_195157-1-.jpg.

    There isn't a neutral coming into the box, but I'm pretty sure it is legal to use two lines from the 3 phase to make 240V single phase. If so I'm thinking that we don't need to worry about your concern?


    Thanks,
    Don
    Last edited by dschad; 08-22-2019 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Clarifying

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    Been busy so I did reply sooner. Yes your transformer will work to make 115VAC (As printed on the Data tag) for you controls and yes you can use 2 of the 3 wires of the 3 phase line to get single phase 230VAC for the transformer. Actually that's why the transformer is there! Otherwise you would need a 5 wire supply if you wanted to get 115/120VAC.
    Reason you don't want to use the ground wire to carry current and use another line as Neutral is because all the equipment is usually grounded to prevent shock. Using ground to carry current will make all the items attached to ground HOT if the ground wire should break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Froneck View Post
    Been busy so I did reply sooner. Yes your transformer will work to make 115VAC (As printed on the Data tag) for you controls and yes you can use 2 of the 3 wires of the 3 phase line to get single phase 230VAC for the transformer. Actually that's why the transformer is there! Otherwise you would need a 5 wire supply if you wanted to get 115/120VAC.
    Reason you don't want to use the ground wire to carry current and use another line as Neutral is because all the equipment is usually grounded to prevent shock. Using ground to carry current will make all the items attached to ground HOT if the ground wire should break.
    Sounds like I'm on track. Thanks, I will update once I get to focus on getting it up and running.

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    Usually to switch voltage on a machine it is just change the motor connections, change the control xfmr input taps and change heaters or overloads. In your case probably larger wires to power the motor.
    3 things for most machines: motor (sometimes wires), xfmr & overloads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Usually to switch voltage on a machine it is just change the motor connections, change the control xfmr input taps and change heaters or overloads. In your case probably larger wires to power the motor.
    3 things for most machines: motor (sometimes wires), xfmr & overloads.
    Check. Making progress and getting clarity...but wondering...

    Regarding sizing the contactor and overload/heaters - I'm thinking that I may want to upgrade the motors to 7.5HP someday, so is it safe to upsize the contactor to a 25Amp one(e.g.: IEC Contactor: 25A, 120 VAC (60Hz)/110 VAC (50Hz) coil voltage (PN# SC-E05-110VAC) | AutomationDirect) and keep the heaters/overload at the correct amperage for the installed motors (5HP now)?

    If so, I believe that the SC-E05 (25AMP contactor) + TK25E-012 (12-18A heater) would be such a combination, plus a set of auxiliary contacts.

    As always, thank for the help.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by dschad View Post

    If so, I believe that the SC-E05 (25AMP contactor) + TK25E-012 (12-18A heater) would be such a combination, plus a set of auxiliary contacts.

    As always, thank for the help.

    Don
    good idea

    Karl

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    Thanks for the confirmation; parts are on the way.


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