Removing and Reusing Tapered Bearing from Lathe Spindle (Clausing 5914 w/ Video) - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    No one I know would ever cut a spindle in 1/2 even if it was bent. You did it but I would never recommend anyone ever do it. I have said all I will say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    No one I know would ever cut a spindle in 1/2 even if it was bent. You did it but I would never recommend anyone ever do it. I have said all I will say.
    I had zero intention of this being an instructional guide for another person. I just wanted to update the people that offered comments to me initially.

    I realize you wouldn't have cut the spindle in half. Honestly though, can you tell me what you would have done? I realize I *should* have replaced the spindle and both the bearings, but what if the casting was damaged? From my perspective I had to triage this situation and deal with the easiest/lowest cost options first and then work my way up from there.

    How would you have removed that bearing? If you would have scrapped the spindle/bearing then what does it matter that I cut it? I had access to a cheap replacement spindle. Would you have preferred I regrind the damaged spindle rather than replacing it with a brand new one? If so, why? If not, then why does it matter that I cut it? If you would have done something else, please educate me. I mean that it the most sincere way. My interest is in improving.
    Last edited by Grizzlybagworks; 11-08-2018 at 10:39 PM.

  3. #23
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    I think Richard's point is how could the spindle have possibly been bent bad enough to cause .015 runout at the nose without there being damage to the bearings?

    As you now know, installing new bearings is no small task. If you are going to go to all that work, why not buy new bearings and put your best foot forward? It's a precision spindle bearing, not a lawn mower wheel.

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    I replaced the bearing on my 5914 about 40 years ago, and as I was reading this thread I was trying to remember how I had actually completed the job. I know that I did not have a press at that time, so I'm sure that as someone mentioned how the manuals recommended bearing removal, I'm sure that I did it that way. I do remember heating the bearing up in hot oil (per manual remondation 300?? degrees F) and installing the front bearing in that manner. Yes those are high quality Temkin 00 bearings and ran a couple hundred dollars for the set.
    I cringed at the thought that you cut the spindle in half to remove the bearing, and I can armchair quarterback the project and say that was not a very cool move, but it has been done and that's it. For some reason I find it hard to believe that the short section of nose taper could be bent that much and not damage the bearing, but you took the measurements and I'll have to go with that. The option that I thought that you would strip the spindle down and see if it would be cost effective to have the taper (OD and ID) reground.
    Do you have the manual for this lathe ? It tells you how to adjust the bearings.

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    Ive repaired lots,and I know that if a roller bearing partially seizes for lack of oil,it will turn on a lathe spindle,causing small spots of friction weld.......the only option then is to force remove the inner race,which scores the spindle badly.....assuming you can break the welds......sometimes these weld spots take 50 ton press to break free.....if the rear bearing seizes,the spindle cant be removed from the lathe,so what to do then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Ive repaired lots,and I know that if a roller bearing partially seizes for lack of oil,it will turn on a lathe spindle,causing small spots of friction weld.......the only option then is to force remove the inner race,which scores the spindle badly.....assuming you can break the welds......sometimes these weld spots take 50 ton press to break free.....if the rear bearing seizes,the spindle cant be removed from the lathe,so what to do then?
    Plasma cut trough rolling elements. (Probably not going to work for most lathe spindles as the front bearings are difficult to access)
    After that shrink the outer race with weld bead and split the inner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomarc View Post
    Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing in your picture, but the obvious bearing I see certainly isn't a "precision" bearing, it's a simple tapered roller bearing which can be had pretty reasonably at most bearing houses. There are different grades of that bearing but my guess is that yours is a run of the mill item.

    Stuart
    Looks just like the front spindle bearing on my Monarch 60. Appearance isn’t everything; the Monarch’s Timken is definitely precision and definitely expensive.

    And it looked like a plain old wheel bearing to me, also.

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    The only visible difference of a precision and truck wheel bearing are etchings on the face. (and on your face when you get the invoice)
    You can not "pull" a 00 class spindle bearing from a shaft and still have a good bearing.
    The only way would be to edm or machine out the holding shaft and that would be questionable since it has been pressed on once.
    These are a one shot install. If something goes wrong or binds during a rebuild for a customer you buy a new bearing and eat the price tag.
    Damaging the cage would be the least of my worries.
    It will run just as a lower class will work. Normally you measure such work with LVDTs as they don't make 5 millionths indicators.
    I have seen people perfectly happy with $50 wheel bearings in such applications.
    Bob

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    Me for instance..........but flanged Gamet bearings arent in standard Timken sizes......under Timkens current pricing policy,a obsolete wheel bearing from a motor bike can be priced at $500........Ive found using standard SKF or Koyo tapers will result in a wandering runout of no more than .0005"........standard angle contact balls are about half this,or less.And never have wandering runout.Flaged bearings are the sticking point,if you want to replace them,an alteration to the castings is in order.

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    I cut a spindle in half once, to get the bearings off. I didn’t want to reuse the bearings, or the spindle, I just wanted to see how it went together. It was a scrapped machine. I remember the spindle was ‘quite’ hard. So if you can band saw it through it’s probably nothing spectacular.

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    I understand what grisleybagworks is saying. He is taking it at a step at a time to make sure he isn't wasting the cost of a bearing when it could be something else. It may not be the steps I or others would take but we are all in different situations. Richard has high standards with his experience and knowledge. That's good. Spindle bearing replacement is a most critical operation for accuracy. Proper adjustment is a must. The nature of a tapered should allow side to side movement and end play to be adjusted out but vibration from bad races or rollers can't be adjusted out. To tight will destroy it quickly.
    I happen to have just pulled the spindle on an old cincy with a 941 timkens in it. 4" I'd. And 8.?? Od. I pulled it because the chuck plate won't unscrew. I will reassemble with the same bearing. Not by choice. $1,000+ bearing on a 1925 lathe. The bearing looks ok but I would always normally replace it. It's just not feasible. It's not to hard to pull the spindle later if the I think the lathe would earn it back.
    I wish grisleybagworks the best of luck with his project. Let us know how it works out.
    If the spindle was bent someone must have lifted it by the chuck and somehow jerked it real hard. That section between the bearing and chuck is short and strong.

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    If you actually managed to stick a 15 thou bend in the spindle, unlikely imho
    The bearing absorbing that amount of load would probably been damaged too, brinelling on the inner and outer race, it’s a hell of a shaft to bend
    File it in the bin, I’m seriously amazed the headstock gear train wasn’t ripped apart myself, at least a few teeth missing.
    Mark

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    thanks for the feedback guys. the bend was one and a half thousands (.0015"), not .015" like I said in the video. I misremembered and realized after the fact.

    Regardless, I realize what I did wasn't the proper approach. That's fine. Right now I'm getting .00015" runout on the spindle. Max allowance new is .0003, so I'm happy. If it presents itself as a problem down the road then I will consider replacing the bearings but I'm not doing anything further until I have the machine completely back together and running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzlybagworks View Post
    ...... Right now I'm getting .00015" runout on the spindle. Max allowance new is .0003, so I'm happy. If it presents itself as a problem down the road then I will consider replacing the bearings but I'm not doing anything further until I have the machine completely back together and running.
    Is this across one rev or 10 revs?
    The thing about bearings is the do not cycle in one turn.
    Bob

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  17. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Is this across one rev or 10 revs?
    The thing about bearings is the do not cycle in one turn.
    Bob
    This is probably 50 turns. As you can imagine, I've gotten a little paranoid about this based on the response. I've re-tested and re-tested and re-tested. After another tightening on the preload I'm getting no perceivable movement at all and the bearings are still spinning smooth.

    Is there a possibility that these numbers won't hold once I get it under power? Sure, but I'm not going to invest anymore time and money into the headstock until the machine is fully assembled.


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    When originally checking the spindle, if it showed no runout between the bearings (say the main gears ran perfectly true), then I would have remachined the nose without disturbing the spindle at all. I have in fact had to do this when I rebuilt an old CNC lathe and it had a bad bearing journal at one end. I knew that welding it up would bend it a little, so I welded up both front and rear journals, machined in one setting and installed it in the machine. There was runout of the nose, so I machined it in place. Not really much different principle than regrinding a milling machine spindle taper in place after replacing the bearings.

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    I would be very, very happy with that. My Emco S11 is in great shape and it shows about 0.0003" inside the spindle.
    Last edited by Terry Keeley; 11-11-2018 at 11:19 PM.

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