What's new
What's new

Rolled steel factory windows- Minimal sightlines with modern glass units?

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
I'm building a 14 foot tall 20 foot wide rolling steel door for the front of my shop. The top 6 feet by 20 feet is going to be windows.

I want the look of old steel factory windows, but I also want to run modern commercial style coated glass units. The glass company that's interested in working with me says they highly recommend the commercial glass units for what I'm doing, however, the glass units have a 3/8" margin around the perimeter for the spacer and seal plus they want to see 1/8" space all around the glass to the steel frame and they say I should have the sightlines overlap the margins by 1/8" so the spacers can't be seen.

I wanted to keep my sightlines under 1" wide, but the glass co says if I use narrower "homeowner" grade spacers and a thin seal the glass won't last, especially in a big moving door.

If this is true how are new thin sightline rolled steel windows made? are they using cheap spacers and seals to get the right look?

This is also a unique trade arrangement for me so I'm trading some repair work for my glass. I want to get my shoprate's worth of glass out of this deal and the glass co seems to want the same, this just isn't their specialty.

So how are high end rolled steel windows made with narrow sightlines? Anybody know?
 
Your terminology is a little confusing

modern insulated glass uses layover grids to get thin muntins between 'panes'

That's not what I want. That looks cheap to me.

I'm using the terminology the glass co used with me. Big co, not ma and pa or residential.
 
Maybe here:
Hope's Steel and Bronze Windows and Doors - Hope's(R) Windows, Inc.
"Hope’s Windows, Inc., based in Jamestown, NY, is the nation’s leading and most experienced manufacturer of custom designed, solid hot-rolled steel and solid bronze window and door systems, specializing in historic preservation, cultural, institutional, commercial and luxury residential applications. Hope’s windows and doors help architects achieve even the most technically challenging design visions with unlimited shapes and sizes. Hope’s advanced finishing system ensures that all Hope’s steel windows and doors last longer than any other available, even under the most extreme environmental conditions."

How did I find them ?

Bought a hand turret lathe from a small shop nearby, so happened to drive by.....:skep:
 
I guess it's probably time to start a shop build thread. So far I have built the 40' steel track/drain and support framework that is poured into the 24" thick concrete slab with lots of rebar. I used slow cure 3000 PSI mix with large aggregate and so far not a single crack after almost a year. The door will open in the middle, each section 10' by 14' tall and rolling on a pair of 20" tall D2 Cat track idlers. The door frame will be 4" .120 and .188 sq tube. The lower 8' of the door will be skinned with 11 gauge steel and once I have it all assembled, looking and working well I'm going to have both doors blasted and hot dip galvanized. The inside of the door will be insulated with the same R20 metal insulated panels I built the rest of the shop with. They are like fancy refrigeration panels, just no camlocks. They screw together airtight.

I want a certain look- Heavy steel industrial age last forever meets energy efficient. I wanted to make the whole thing from structural shapes and plate and hot rivet it together, but the cost and time is just not feasible for me.

Spent a lot of time reiterating the door design and working through detail after detail. Sealing, adjustments for leveling and latching, etc.
 
Going to talk more to the glass co about the 1/8" gap they want between the glass and the muntins. Seems like a lot of space to me.
 
Hot rivet look...."Lee press on rivet heads"

Just run some off on the screw machine (or someone else here can)
and glue them on.
 
Hot rivet look...."Lee press on rivet heads"

Just run some off on the screw machine (or someone else here can)
and glue them on.

Do you think the hot glue from the craft store will survive hot galvanizing or should I go to the hardware store?
 
Hot rivet look...."Lee press on rivet heads"
kinda. use tc bolts and cut threads to angle depth, hole drilled to 25/32 and center punch the back side with serious authority. or cut threads and tack backside ala plug weld lite with 3/4 or 13/16 holes. The tc bolt head is the same as 3/4 rivet. or just order rivets and do the same. We keep tc bolts by the pallet in stock so I know it works in a pinch.

If they feel confident, and you feel confident about framing square then 1/16 air gap seems doable, this lets you also narrow the overhang by a 1/16.
 
Hope steel windows will have glazing stops sized for insulated glass. Most any steel window manufacturer will too. However, steel windows came long before insulated glass so those stops are a compromise. The clearance is required for differential expansion and contraction of glass and steel. You will possibly need more clearance due to the opening and closing of the rolling door. Better consider weight, steel windows are heavy. Why not consider something from the auto industry?
 
Do you think the hot glue from the craft store will survive hot galvanizing or should I go to the hardware store?

Heck....leetle button magnets are cheap, c'bore a recess, and glue one in.

so you can change the pattern every so often....:crazy:
 
Going to talk more to the glass co about the 1/8" gap they want between the glass and the muntins. Seems like a lot of space to me.

It's important to have some gap as glass and steel move quite a bit with temperature changes. The old rule of thumb was to measure and deduct 1/8" for timber sashes, a bit more for steel.
I can't specifically comment on the spacer bar profile other than to say that the units last longer if the spacer bar and sealant are covered by the muntin and bead. I guess this means that sight lines are wider and the fine lines of the Crittal windows are somewhat compromised.
Have you looked into hardcoat Low-E glass as an alternative if your code permits?
 
I know the layover look cheap, but you have not yet described exactly what you are trying to do.

steel is a poor insulator.

so are the edge spacers on glass IGU's

Bare IGU's are usually sold with a center of glass insulation value for a given standard size. COG is best possible, the edges being much worse than the center. More edges per area, poorer performance.

IF you have actual discreet panes in a 6 over 6 or 12 over 12 or whatever pattern, it will perform horribly compared to a single pane.

Consider that the glass will be over the viewers head, thus not that visible.

Consider custom welding layover frames that meet your personal aesthetic standards.

Your glass will be more efficient, cheaper, and easier to install.

Aesthetically if you cannot make it indistinguishable from the real thing, deliberate 'faux' can be more attractive.
 
as mentioned, there are reasons they dont make insulated steel windows in any commercial quantities any more. Temperature expansions, the variability of steel angle (its seldom as dimensionally accurate as aluminum extrusions) and the warranty issues are some.
Factory owners didnt call and whine if one of their 5000 panes leaked- they just sent the janitor out with a can of putty.

I really wonder, myself, about glass windows in a rolling steel door. Hope whatever system you end up with is easy to replace panes- because I have replaced a lot of 12" x 18" ish single panes over the years, in steel frames, and wood sash windows, as they break and crack on older buildings all the time. My current office is wood framed, and doesnt move- but its 80 years old or so, and it settles.

you want a certain look, you pays the price.
A lot of my income over the years has been making those kinds of good looking, obsolete, difficult objects.
Which led to my motto- I am slow, and expensive. Pick two.
This wont be cheap, and it wont be maintenance free- but it its what you want, you can do it, but leave enough expansion room.

As for rivets- It befuddles me that people who routinely run hundred thousand dollar cnc machines, with programming, expensive tooling, oddball alloys, and exotic coolants and lubes somehow think that making a simple hot rivet is hard.

Rivets are really simple to make and set.
You can machine rivet dies with a ball mill.
You can press rivets by hand with a hammer, or with pretty much any shop press.
I have done projects where I set thousands of stainless steel rivets, and everything about it is simpler, and easier, than any cnc milling op anywhere- its 18th century tech, at best.
If you want rivets, make rivets.

Here- watch my friend steve, who is probably the foremost practitioner of riveting alive today- his entire shop is worth about one used haas, and his worries about tolerances are laughably loose.
YouTube
 
It's important to have some gap as glass and steel move quite a bit with temperature changes. The old rule of thumb was to measure and deduct 1/8" for timber sashes, a bit more for steel.
I can't specifically comment on the spacer bar profile other than to say that the units last longer if the spacer bar and sealant are covered by the muntin and bead. I guess this means that sight lines are wider and the fine lines of the Crittal windows are somewhat compromised.
Have you looked into hardcoat Low-E glass as an alternative if your code permits?

Very good to know that the sealants break down if they aren't hidden.
I'm going with low E glass. I just don't fully understand the differences between softcoat and hardcoat yet. No codes to worry about. I'm out in the sticks.
 








 
Back
Top