Rolled steel factory windows- Minimal sightlines with modern glass units? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    I know the layover look cheap, but you have not yet described exactly what you are trying to do.

    steel is a poor insulator.

    so are the edge spacers on glass IGU's

    Bare IGU's are usually sold with a center of glass insulation value for a given standard size. COG is best possible, the edges being much worse than the center. More edges per area, poorer performance.

    IF you have actual discreet panes in a 6 over 6 or 12 over 12 or whatever pattern, it will perform horribly compared to a single pane.

    Consider that the glass will be over the viewers head, thus not that visible.

    Consider custom welding layover frames that meet your personal aesthetic standards.

    Your glass will be more efficient, cheaper, and easier to install.

    Aesthetically if you cannot make it indistinguishable from the real thing, deliberate 'faux' can be more attractive.
    That all makes perfect sense.

    In my limited understanding of how buildings work my goal is to make this door as air tight as I can and insulate where possible while also getting the look I want.

    I did some playing around with the design and I think I can live with fewer panes and larger muntins. If I step up to panes that are about 2' by 3' then 2" wide Muntins don't look bad. Not exactly what I wanted, but I think I can live with it if I can't make smaller panes work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mach2 View Post
    Better consider weight, steel windows are heavy
    When estimating how much the doors were likely to weigh when finished I made the decision to put the rollers on the bottom and give the door it's own foundation. If I hung them from the building I'd have needed a lot more steel in the front wall and bigger footings for the main support columns.

    Building the heavy steel track and pouring it into 2' of concrete gets my ground pressure way way down there so hopefully I won't have to adjust it every season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    That all makes perfect sense.

    In my limited understanding of how buildings work my goal is to make this door as air tight as I can and insulate where possible while also getting the look I want.
    If you are SERIOUS about that? Omit the glass altogether in the moving structure. Glass is heavy as well as costly to replace if/as/when damaged. Also has radiant heat transfer, both directions, as well as conductive.

    Just do a fully "faux" appearance of it as a not-at-all "functional" artistic overlay and put any glass for natural lighting into the non-moving parts of the structure. EG: The fixed walls - Or even skylights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Just do a fully "faux" appearance of it as a not-at-all "functional" artistic overlay and put any glass for natural lighting into the non-moving parts of the structure. EG: The fixed walls - Or even skylights.
    That would be the "Lee Press On Winders".....

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    If you are SERIOUS about that? Omit the glass altogether in the moving structure. Glass is heavy as well as costly to replace if/as/when damaged. Also has radiant heat transfer, both directions, as well as conductive.

    Just do a fully "faux" appearance of it as a not-at-all "functional" artistic overlay and put any glass for natural lighting into the non-moving parts of the structure. EG: The fixed walls - Or even skylights.
    No. I'm good with windows. This door will be wide open 98% of the time in the spring, summer and fall and I want the windows so it doesn't feel like a 7000 sq ft cave in the winter time. I have a real nice view here and I've already torn down buildings and made big changes to the layout of the property just so I can keep my view intact.

    Anyone can stuff machines in a building and make chips, but with a bit of tasteful planning a person can actually ENJOY where they work and what they do everyday.

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    Is there somewhere I can go to see some definitions of the various terms being used here? And perhaps some well labeled photos?

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    I dont have much new to add other than seconding the use of hardcoat low-e for the glass, also called LOF glass, (for Libby-Owens-Ford,IIRC) This will let the heat of the sun in as well as as slowing the exit of of heat from the inside. Standard low-e will not let the suns heat through, so you can be right in the sunlight and be shivering cold, really a strange sensation once you realize what is happening.
    I too am building a shop and it has two 14x14 doors that are slated to be sliders. Can you elaborate on how you will seal the gaps when your door is closed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Is there somewhere I can go to see some definitions of the various terms being used here? And perhaps some well labeled photos?
    Architectural & associated building supply websites. The online world is chock-full of that stuff.

    As with machining, casting, molding, stamping ....or hairdressing - it all has its own set of terms. Not hard. Just new to yah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I dont have much new to add other than seconding the use of hardcoat low-e for the glass, also called LOF glass, (for Libby-Owens-Ford,IIRC) This will let the heat of the sun in as well as as slowing the exit of of heat from the inside. Standard low-e will not let the suns heat through, so you can be right in the sunlight and be shivering cold, really a strange sensation once you realize what is happening.
    I too am building a shop and it has two 14x14 doors that are slated to be sliders. Can you elaborate on how you will seal the gaps when your door is closed?

    I don't agree that standard low- E stops the sun's heat at all. There is slightly less long wave transmission because of the ceramic/metallic coating but less tham 0.1%. Re-radiation of short wave is considerably less than standard or laminated glass hence the solar gain. The coating needs to be on the correct surface.
    For OP's use a metallic coating to increase reflectivity is not desirable or warranted- this is usually the realm of high-rise buildings.

    AGC Planibel A and G are examples.

    OP- you need hard coat- soft coat low E is easily damaged, even by wiping with a cloth and usually used in DGU's where the surfaces are protected

    Glass cracking in old buildings- the glass used in such windows was very thin, often 2nd and 3rd grade glass and very poorly annealed by today's standards. Add the fact that lime leaching from building facades makes some glass very brittle, and Critall windows often have a spring clip that retains (and cracks) the glass, and there is a lot of glass to replace.
    At the time they were revolutionary because they allowed large vertical windows, ideal for factories that needed natural light.
    I'd rather have a galvanised Crittal window at 50 years old than anything aluminium

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenwud View Post
    I don't agree that standard low- E stops the sun's heat at all.

    OP- you need hard coat- soft coat low E is easily damaged, even by wiping with a cloth and usually used in DGU's where the surfaces are protected
    This is wrong on both counts. any low e coating is going to be on the 2nd or 3rd surface of the IGU. these are INSIDE the double pane window so there is no way you could rub off the coating cleaning it with a cloth.

    Soft coat low-e which is what is comonly called low-e is not good in a passive solar use where you need the heat gain from the sun to warm the house. To get windows that will let IN the suns heat they need be either non coated clear glass or LOF glass (hardcoat low-e). To take the most advantage the windows need to shaded in the summer by a proper size roof overhang. The winter sun that is lower in the sky will get under the overhang to get through the windows.
    If it is energy star it is soft coat.

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    More explanation of hard vs soft low-e:

    Addressing a couple of possible misconceptions -

    Hard coat and soft coat LowE coatings are fundamentally different beasties.

    Hard coats (as previously mentioned) are applied to the glass while it is still in the float process. Hard coat LowE coatings are primarily tin oxide and since they are applied while the glass is still hot in the furnace they are referred to as pyrolytic .

    Pyrolytic coatings (Pilkington's Energy Advantage - again, as already mentioned) is an example of a coating that will pass near or shortwave infrared and block far or longwave infrared.

    The direct solar heat that passes thru your window glass and warms you does so as near infrared. Hard coats are referred to as High Solar Heat Gain coatings because that is exactly what they are (with a few exceptions in the market - there are a few hardcoats with additional properties that make them low solar gain coatings) .

    Solarban 60 (again, as mentioned) is an example of a soft or sputter coat. Soft coats are not "sprayed on" the glass after the float process. The actual process to produce soft coats is called sputtering (hence the name - clever, eh? (Sorry Stephen - attempt at Canadian humour!)).

    Sputter coating takes place in a series of interconnected vacuum chambers where electrically charged ionized gas is used to deposit layers of metals and metal oxides directly on the negatively charged glass surface. Soft coats are measured by (a) how many layers of various metals they contain and (b) by how thick the finished coating is - in atoms. A typical sputter coat is less than 1000 atoms thick - and may contain as many as 11 (or a few more) separate layers of metal.

    The active ingredient in soft coats is typically silver, although both titanium and stainless steel can (and have been) used as well. SolarBan 60 is an example of a "dual-silver-layer" coating meaning that there are two layers of silver among the half dozen (give or take) total metallic layers in the coating. There are currently single, dual, and triple silver layer coatings on the market. Solarban 70XL would be an example of a triple-silver layer coating.

    Silver does a very good job of reflecting infrared light. It is better at it than is tin oxide, particularly in the near infrared band. Remember that direct solar heat gain occurs in the near infrared band. And as an aside, technically LowE coatings do not reflect IR (or any other sort of radiation). They are "low emissivity" which is not the same thing as being reflective. I am using reflect or reflective in this posting because it is easy to understand (and picture) the coating as being reflective and it works for a basic understanding of different coating properties.

    Soft coats are also a little better at blocking far infrared energy as well. This is why soft coats generally have better insulative values than do hard coats, but at the cost (in heating dominated climates) of less solar gain. Thus, they are Low Solar Heat gain coatings.

    A typical hardcoat will have SHGC numbers from about 60 to 70. A typical single silver soft coat will have SHGC numbers of about 50 to 60. And, as mentioned previously, a dual or triple silver soft coat will typically have SHGC numbers below 40. These are "raw" numbers, and installation in a sash frame will change them. They will go lower when installed.

    Also, the numbers are affected by placement in the IG unit. For example a typical dual-silver LowE coating will have a SHGC number below 40 when on the number two surface of an IGU - but move that coating to the number 3 surface and you may increase that SHGC number by as much as 10 points. So that a SHGC of 40 on surface 2 could be as high as 50 is the coating were applied to surface 3.

    This is why coatings are applied to surface 3 in areas where a person might want maximum solar heat gain and why they are applies to surface 2 where one wishes to block the maximum of heat from entering the home.

    From here:
    StackPath

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    To be clear, all coatings diminish solar gain, however, since in the winter heat loss though the glass is much higher than heat gain, it is usually best to have lo E even when you want the solar gain

    Unfortunately the tax law was written with AC in mind and most 'tax rebate' glass is low solar gain and thus bad for passive solar

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    To be clear, all coatings diminish solar gain, however, since in the winter heat loss though the glass is much higher than heat gain, it is usually best to have lo E even when you want the solar gain

    Unfortunately the tax law was written with AC in mind and most 'tax rebate' glass is low solar gain and thus bad for passive solar
    Yes clear is the king of solar heat gain but the LOF glass is a good compromise to keep the winter heat inside.
    You are absolutely correct that the AC takes precidence, this is why the softcoat loe-e glass is energy star rated and the hardcoat is not.
    All this is a moot point IF the OP's door faces north.
    Last edited by Rob F.; 06-12-2019 at 12:09 PM. Reason: spelling of IF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    All this is a moot point it the OP's door faces north.

    Heh

    didn't even catch that

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Heh

    didn't even catch that
    Sorry for the typo in my last post, I was just saying we dont know what direction his door faces, IF it is north facing then the sun will never hit it, so solar heat gain will never happen.

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    Door faces West. Not ideal for summertime, but the only way to make the driveway work and I get a nice view of fields and mountains.

    I'm not concerned about AC. Last couple days have been mid 90's and the shop stays cool inside until about 3 PM when the sun starts creeping in through the big door opening.

    Here in West Oregon we don't get a lot of sun in the cold months. We get nice summer and fall, but winter is mostly 40's and drizzle. I think any effort to capture the suns heat in the winter is going to be a waste.

    If the glass reflects heat it would probably give me more comfortable working time in summer afternoons if I choose to close the doors to reflect the sun.

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    West you probably want low solar gain
    No useful heat from the west in winter
    Worst possible heat load at end of day in summers

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    Oh yea? Here is one:

    When a window has narrow sight lines it means that windows are constructed with material that doesn’t totally impede your view. Conversely, some windows are made with thick frames, thick supports, and thick reinforcements. These kinds of windows actually make observation out a window difficult as you’ll have to look beyond all those extra window trimmings in order to maximize that paint-worthy view. But they hurt more than just the view. They actually decrease the flow of light into your home or business, making for a darker, less inviting atmosphere.
    And another:

    Equal sightlines are created when each section of a window is balanced and in harmony with the others – basically, that every part of the frames, glass panes and glazing bars is in line. Unequal sightlines are generally created when one window features openings, such as transom windows, while the other windows are fixed. The glass area for the fixed windows is typically larger, which means that the sightline along the top of the window is uneven.
    A third, with pictures:

    Window and Door Sightlines | Maintaining balanace and visual impact

    The third one says it explains what sightlines are, but it does not seem to conform to the other two. Is it just a matter of lining things up. Heck, that dates back to the first mud or log buildings.

    WTH?



    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Architectural & associated building supply websites. The online world is chock-full of that stuff.

    As with machining, casting, molding, stamping ....or hairdressing - it all has its own set of terms. Not hard. Just new to yah.

  22. #39
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    I am not sure I totally understand the question, but would using plexiglass instead of actual, breakable glass for the windows help? It could flex with the steel door without breaking. Is that the "secret" manufacturing technique that would allow using the thin seals you seem to want?



    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I'm building a 14 foot tall 20 foot wide rolling steel door for the front of my shop. The top 6 feet by 20 feet is going to be windows.

    I want the look of old steel factory windows, but I also want to run modern commercial style coated glass units. The glass company that's interested in working with me says they highly recommend the commercial glass units for what I'm doing, however, the glass units have a 3/8" margin around the perimeter for the spacer and seal plus they want to see 1/8" space all around the glass to the steel frame and they say I should have the sightlines overlap the margins by 1/8" so the spacers can't be seen.
    So, there ia a "margin" and a "seal" and a "spacer" and the sightlines, whatever they are, should overlap the margins. Apparently the sightlines are not just lines as my third reference seems to imply, but he seems to be thinking about a feature with a real width that can actually overlap something. How does that work? None of the internet references that I found show the relationships between these features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I wanted to keep my sightlines under 1" wide, but the glass co says if I use narrower "homeowner" grade spacers and a thin seal the glass won't last, especially in a big moving door.

    If this is true how are new thin sightline rolled steel windows made? are they using cheap spacers and seals to get the right look?
    Is the sightline you are talking about a combination of all the opaic things between two adjacent panes of glass?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    This is also a unique trade arrangement for me so I'm trading some repair work for my glass. I want to get my shoprate's worth of glass out of this deal and the glass co seems to want the same, this just isn't their specialty.

    So how are high end rolled steel windows made with narrow sightlines? Anybody know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    This is wrong on both counts. any low e coating is going to be on the 2nd or 3rd surface of the IGU. these are INSIDE the double pane window so there is no way you could rub off the coating cleaning it with a cloth.

    Soft coat low-e which is what is comonly called low-e is not good in a passive solar use where you need the heat gain from the sun to warm the house. To get windows that will let IN the suns heat they need be either non coated clear glass or LOF glass (hardcoat low-e). To take the most advantage the windows need to shaded in the summer by a proper size roof overhang. The winter sun that is lower in the sky will get under the overhang to get through the windows.
    If it is energy star it is soft coat.
    Sort-of maybe

    You comments suggest an issue posted but you post the same, raising softcoat as different. It is a different process, but radiative heat loss is reduced like hardcoat low E. It's durable and it works.

    I have reject softcoat low E in my greenhouse It was rejected because it was marked in process of being made up into a DGU. Yes, it makes a difference in winter over standard glass and would last better in hardcoat, but it was free glass. Marks are not an issue because plants don't care, summer I open the ventilators and let the Pacific breeze through. A bit like OP's workshop in Oregon by description.
    The heat/light issue is that a DGU is effectively a transparent insulator and sensible heat is slowed by this, hence sunlight comes without heat. However, shorter wavelengths pass through and are re-radiated as sensible heat within the building. The low E glass of whatever flavour reduces the re-radiation of this heat through the DGUand into the external environment.

    Oke's "Boundary Layer Climates" provides understanding of solar heat gain, shortwave vs longwave radiation and sensible heat. IIRC he deals with passive vs active solar gain, which is really relevant here.

    Pilkington's "Glass in Building" provides understanding of glass coatings and architectural glass in general.


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