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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMicroscope View Post
    You are correct BUT, i love the traveling on off reverse switch it has that is attached to the carriage. I would have to keep that feature.
    Present-day choices of 'tronics gadgetry?

    You could use a gamer's joystick, TV-remote, or a Blew-tooth headset and voice-command if you WANT to do... [1]



    Good idea to keep it all "intuitive", though.

    [1] Once had a client INSIST that their Swiss website had to have a depiction of a milch COW in the rotating panels of the masthead. Sneaked a .wav file of a cow moo-ing whilst a bull "serviced" her under it on hover-over...

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    If you want to keep the original controls, forget about the VFD. I highly recommend getting an electrician to help you hook up the static/rotary converter, none of us knew how to do this the first time. In my case it was before the internet, so there was no free advice, I paid a sparky and watched/listened carefully, it is not rocket science, but you need to know what you are doing.

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    In my testing of the forward reverse switch,i found an unusual button. It is up near the chuck area by the speed controls. Its a momentary button. When i press it, the reverse circuit activates regardless of what position the forward reverse apron switch is in.
    Do you folks think this was used as a brake? Dosent seem like a healthy thing to do to a motor. Throw it in reverse to slow it down?
    930e0ade-a330-4934-a7c5-dbcf5dfb848f.jpg

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    Not knowing anything about your lathe, many lathes have a Jog button. I use it on my lathe just to check things before I start an operation and some times for short threads. The ones that I have seen run in the FORWARD direction not reverse. I wonder if one of the motor wires got swapped reversing the direction. Hopefully Forest or someone else with a lathe like yours can chime in.

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    How do you know it is reverse? Fwd-rev push button? I would think it would depend on how it was wired to the 3 phase. I am not sure it matters which contactor is which, I might even see if I could tell which one was forward and wire it opposite so it became the reverse so the points inside them might last a bit longer. Forward contact would see a lot more use, that is why I would wire it to be reverse. If it jogged reverse then change 2 incoming wires and will it not jog forward? I hope that makes a little sense.
    Pics of the green covers off yet?
    My monarch is wired backwards (I am to lazy to change it) and to get it to go forward I push reverse button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    How do you know it is reverse? Fwd-rev push button? I would think it would depend on how it was wired to the 3 phase. I am not sure it matters which contactor is which, I might even see if I could tell which one was forward and wire it opposite so it became the reverse so the points inside them might last a bit longer. Forward contact would see a lot more use, that is why I would wire it to be reverse. If it jogged reverse then change 2 incoming wires and will it not jog forward? I hope that makes a little sense.
    Pics of the green covers off yet?
    My monarch is wired backwards (I am to lazy to change it) and to get it to go forward I push reverse button.
    With the continuity tester connected to common and reverse, push the button, the tester buzzes. Tester on common and forward , push the button, nothing.


    Almost forgot about the green covers.
    Nothing under there:
    b7f38bbd-da53-4518-bf28-5dc8bac97d63.jpg

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    There must be some kind of overload protection for the motor. Kind of surprised that it looks like no heaters under the green covers.
    Is it possible there is no overload on this?
    Has it been removed at some point in the past?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    There must be some kind of overload protection for the motor. Kind of surprised that it looks like no heaters under the green covers.
    Is it possible there is no overload on this?
    Has it been removed at some point in the past?
    I dont see anything missing anywhere. I dont know where else to look gor heaters or what they even look like. Ive opened every panel and every box.
    Waiting on my static converter to be shipped.
    Im looking on Craigslist for a larger 3 phase motor to make a rotary converter out of. Wonder if i can convert a static converter to a rotary one later on?

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    My 5 gallon pail of AW 68 Hydraulic Oil Fluid (ISO VG 68, SAE 20) came in today. The upper gearbox has just a puddle of oil left and nothing in the apron gearbox.

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    Absolutley can use the static for running the idle motor to make it a RPC. Be sure to ask for instruction from the guys you are getting static from.
    Heaters are in the contactors and the power flows throug them, I am not as familiar with european style as american style contactors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMicroscope View Post
    I dont see anything missing anywhere. I dont know where else to look gor heaters or what they even look like. Ive opened every panel and every box.

    Look again, and closer, at your main power contactors. A "heater" is a thermal circuit-breaker - one ordinarily designed to work with, and usually attach TO, a given "family" of contactors such that the trip-out amperage can be selected once for "many' contactors in that family. Other times, they are "remoted", may have a reset pushbutton exposed.

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    Not sure what that special button is actually for but you definitely can instant reverse a three phase motor, it is called "plugging" the motor.
    It slows down and reverses without any ill effects, I do it all the time on several of my machines.

    Good luck with your new lathe, one more vote for an RPC, I had one for years and I ran my whole shop on a single 15hp unit. It even ran the compressor which started the RPC and shut it off when done. Three phase machines are cheap and easy to get.

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    Hi
    A universal truth with motors is that you only get full power and torque available at the rated rpm (frequency)
    This is because a VFD will maintain constant torque below rated rpm and constant power above rated rpm.
    Below rated rpm, the torque will remain constant but power will reduce as rpm reduce.
    Above rated rpm, power will remain constant, but torque will reduce as rpm increases.
    This is not a flaw with VFDs, it is a physical limitation of the motors. A VFD will optimise motor operation to maximise available power at any rpm.

    So the best way to use run a VFD on a lathe is to select a gear that runs the motor at near rated rpm, then adjust the VFD frequency +/-20% or so to fine tune the rpm. This maximises available torque and power at the chuck and avoids the need for extra motor cooling (low speed operation) or wasting power at higher speed (fan load increases with the rpm squared).

    Installing a VFD properly is not a trivial process. Good quality VFDs come with a manual as thick as a novel (well it almost seems like it). You would need to know the manual inside out to ensure you set it up correctly. All of the current lathe wiring, relays, circuit breakers etc need to be stripped out.

    Based on your own comments I would say you do not have the skills or knowledge to do this work. It is unlikely that any mains voltage work you do complies with local regulations, which will void your insurance cover. A typical local domestic electrician won't know much about VFDs. For that, you really need an industrial / controls electrician. A VFD is the best solution, but not if it is out of reach to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    Hi
    A universal truth with motors is that you only get full power and torque available at the rated rpm (frequency)
    This is because a VFD will maintain constant torque below rated rpm and constant power above rated rpm.
    Below rated rpm, the torque will remain constant but power will reduce as rpm reduce.
    Above rated rpm, power will remain constant, but torque will reduce as rpm increases.
    This is not a flaw with VFDs, it is a physical limitation of the motors. A VFD will optimise motor operation to maximise available power at any rpm.

    So the best way to use run a VFD on a lathe is to select a gear that runs the motor at near rated rpm, then adjust the VFD frequency +/-20% or so to fine tune the rpm. This maximises available torque and power at the chuck and avoids the need for extra motor cooling (low speed operation) or wasting power at higher speed (fan load increases with the rpm squared).

    Installing a VFD properly is not a trivial process. Good quality VFDs come with a manual as thick as a novel (well it almost seems like it). You would need to know the manual inside out to ensure you set it up correctly. All of the current lathe wiring, relays, circuit breakers etc need to be stripped out.

    Based on your own comments I would say you do not have the skills or knowledge to do this work. It is unlikely that any mains voltage work you do complies with local regulations, which will void your insurance cover. A typical local domestic electrician won't know much about VFDs. For that, you really need an industrial / controls electrician. A VFD is the best solution, but not if it is out of reach to you.
    You have made many good points. Im going to take your advise and not go vfd.
    Tonight i am hoing to pick up a 7hp 3 phase motor to make a RPC with. In the meantime, im going to use the static one for now.
    You folks are much smarter than me, I learn by listening to folks who have already been there and done that. Im carefully listening to eveything everyone says. Love this forum.
    PS, Im still looking for the “heaters”

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    Maybe do an internet search on the brand and model number of the two motor contactors (things with green covers) and see if you can learn anything about overload protection. Ask or search for overload protection with that model contactor and how to adjust it for different motors. These contactors are made to suit a range of motors.
    Also sometimes ebay posting have usefull info in them, but try to back up anything on an ebay site somehere else to be sure it is true.
    7hp sounds perfect, was it cheap? If it does not feel good spinning it is not that big a deal to change bearings. And it is under NO load so it would pprobably be fine until you couldn't stand the bearing noise

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    I think you are making the right choice for your situation for what that's worth.

    When I got my first lathe, a Taiwanese copy of a Mori Seiki from the mid 80's everyone said just splice in a VFD for the motors. Along with all the other helpful stuff people have been saying here. They were right about all the good stuff a VFD can do. I was a little worried because it had a 2 speed electric motor and I was researching it before I went to pick it up.

    Then two things happened in quick succession. The machinery dealer had a used American Rotary 20hp RPC there and I opened the electrical box on my new lathe.

    img_20130411_131933_763.jpg

    That was the end of that. No way I was going to splice into that. After adding a large belt sander, a vertical band saw, two mills, a surface grinder, and an air compressor I just thanked god I just bought a RPC to get started. I just wired them into the 3 phase panel.

    Now I have enough work and little enough time I have no interest in trying to go back and retro VFD's on everything no matter how well they work. I would use one if the machine wouldn't operate otherwise but barring that I would get a new RPC (and just did, a 75hp one, local power company screwed me on 3 phase).

    A Phase Perfect would be awesome but at $14k for a 60hp I just couldn't take the hit along with all the other expenses. Maybe in the future. Although if the RPC's keep working as well as they are I see no reason to replace them. A third the cost and with a ADX no voltage issues. Just one less headache for me.

    Just my experience. Simple and reliable is one less worry running a business for me. (and damn PG&E for making me wait 15 months and screwing me out of 3 phase, but that's another story)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    I think you are making the right choice for your situation for what that's worth.

    When I got my first lathe, a Taiwanese copy of a Mori Seiki from the mid 80's everyone said just splice in a VFD for the motors. Along with all the other helpful stuff people have been saying here. They were right about all the good stuff a VFD can do. I was a little worried because it had a 2 speed electric motor and I was researching it before I went to pick it up.

    Then two things happened in quick succession. The machinery dealer had a used American Rotary 20hp RPC there and I opened the electrical box on my new lathe.

    img_20130411_131933_763.jpg

    That was the end of that. No way I was going to splice into that. After adding a large belt sander, a vertical band saw, two mills, a surface grinder, and an air compressor I just thanked god I just bought a RPC to get started. I just wired them into the 3 phase panel.

    Now I have enough work and little enough time I have no interest in trying to go back and retro VFD's on everything no matter how well they work. I would use one if the machine wouldn't operate otherwise but barring that I would get a new RPC (and just did, a 75hp one, local power company screwed me on 3 phase).

    A Phase Perfect would be awesome but at $14k for a 60hp I just couldn't take the hit along with all the other expenses. Maybe in the future. Although if the RPC's keep working as well as they are I see no reason to replace them. A third the cost and with a ADX no voltage issues. Just one less headache for me.

    Just my experience. Simple and reliable is one less worry running a business for me. (and damn PG&E for making me wait 15 months and screwing me out of 3 phase, but that's another story)
    That panel looks like modern art. I would hang it on a wall and look at it. I bet rocket science is simpler.

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    Hi
    I think you have made the right choice.

    I have a similar size lathe I am converting to VFD. I am using a Yaskawa V1000 industrial grade unit with a 4kW motor.
    To give you an idea of the complexity of a full VFD conversion, I have attached an image of the circuit diagram. You can see from the scribbles, it is work in progress. Most of the circuit design is straight out of the manual but the manual offers many different options, so there is no single right answer.

    I had to make a new enclosure that bolts onto the back of the lathe. The amount of control and protection circuitry is about 3x more than the original installation.

    The old lathe controls are seamlessly integrated into the new VFD conversion. The front panel controls now have LED indicators. A 3 position switch gives two fixed motor speeds (red/blue) that match the original two speed motor rpm so the rpm on the charts match. The middle position (green) gives full frequency control. I have intentionally aimed to make the modifications look factory original.

    I haven't yet finished the design of the top mounted control panel. I am starting with the controls in a lunch box to refine the design/layout.

    img_8571.jpg
    img_8572.jpg
    img_8573.jpg

    You can probably see from this that I don't subscribe to the "screw a VFD on the wall" philosophy.

  22. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMicroscope View Post
    You have made many good points. Im going to take your advise and not go vfd.
    Tonight i am hoing to pick up a 7hp 3 phase motor to make a RPC with. In the meantime, im going to use the static one for now.
    If it is sized correctly, the static converter can be used as a starter when you get the 3-phase motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    Hi
    I think you have made the right choice.

    I have a similar size lathe I am converting to VFD. I am using a Yaskawa V1000 industrial grade unit with a 4kW motor.
    To give you an idea of the complexity of a full VFD conversion, I have attached an image of the circuit diagram. You can see from the scribbles, it is work in progress. Most of the circuit design is straight out of the manual but the manual offers many different options, so there is no single right answer.

    I had to make a new enclosure that bolts onto the back of the lathe. The amount of control and protection circuitry is about 3x more than the original installation.

    The old lathe controls are seamlessly integrated into the new VFD conversion. The front panel controls now have LED indicators. A 3 position switch gives two fixed motor speeds (red/blue) that match the original two speed motor rpm so the rpm on the charts match. The middle position (green) gives full frequency control. I have intentionally aimed to make the modifications look factory original.

    I haven't yet finished the design of the top mounted control panel. I am starting with the controls in a lunch box to refine the design/layout.

    img_8571.jpg
    img_8572.jpg
    img_8573.jpg

    You can probably see from this that I don't subscribe to the "screw a VFD on the wall" philosophy.
    Thats extremely complicated. Static or rotary is pretty simple.


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