Sawing Hadfield Manganese Steel

I've got a customer that makes some parts out of Hadfield Manganese Steel, 12-14% manganese content I believe. They made the comment one day about it being impossible to cut on a bandsaw, and of course --- challenge accepted...

Today we began testing on a piece of 2" round, with a 4-6tpi bi-metal blade, but with M51 HSS teeth instead of the standard M42...

The customer expected us to ruin the blade instantly. We made it half-way through before stopping the trial due to slow performance, however the blade was technically still cutting. To confirm this, we removed the manganese material, and made another cut through 2" round 1045, to confirm that the saw teeth were still in OK condition.



In the Manganese material, the blade began to wander as we reached the full 2" width of cut. It was however still making chips, but they grew increasingly fine. We were using coolant - which looked like a full synthetic coolant based on look & feel. The material & blade never got hot.



I think we ran out of head-weight, and simply couldn't penetrate the material anymore. The saw is a smaller, but very nice condition "Wells" dual-column saw. However, I think it's simply a gravity feed/hydraulic bleed-off feed control, and we simply ran our of weight.



I'm thinking about going to a courser-pitch blade in order apply more force to each tooth given our limited head-weight. I'm on the fence about using coolant or not. I know that D2 saws better dry vs. with coolant, and I'm not sure if the Manganese would be in the same boat.



I'm going to reach out to the sawblade manufacturer tomorrow to determine the next course of action, but I wanted to poll the PM crowd to see if anyone has had success band-sawing this material.

Thanks in advance.

Several years ago the company I worked for had a job using Hadfield steel. Our VP ried to do us a favor and had the material annealed. In that state it was unmachinable. We sent it back to the heat treater and he left it "as quenched". In that state it was machinable. Beware of work hardening. Keep the tool cutting and do not allow it to dwell.

You did pretty well at your
attempt to saw it. Going to a coarser blade should help. When the cutting slows down it is time to change blades. Keep as much weight on the blade as you can without the blade leading off.

Is the saw a W-9 like this? If so, the downfeed force is adjustable. Look at the blade guide toward the rear of the saw. There's a valve there that senses the downfeed force.

The info sticker on my valve fell off so I can't say for sure, but I think if you turn the valve clockwise it will increase the downfeed force. If you want to know exactly how much force the head is applying, stick a bathroom or similar scale between the blade guides with a block of wood on it. Lower the blade onto the scale and see what it reads. That head should be able to supply considerable force depending on how you have the valve adjusted.

Is there a reason not to use a carbide-tipped blade? I lengthwise split some moderately hardened (H1025? Can't remember) 4" OD 17-4 SS bar with a C-T Simonds blade on a plain 'ol 16" DoAll vertical, and it was wonderfully smooth and easy to do. I would not have wanted to try that with a bi-metal blade.

Going by this thread: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ques-austenitic-11-14-manganese-steel-312137/ maybe the best way to go is wire EDM or perhaps waterjet, but it might be worth trying a C-T blade if you want to stay with a bandsaw.

At only 2" round, I would think an abrasive chop saw would do the trick without worrying about killing a blade.

Their saw is a W-9. We had the feed force all the way open near the full 2” cut, but it seemed still not enough. Carbide blade is an option, but much a much bigger investment for testing, which is why our first go is with bi-metal. Simonds X51 by the way.

They are currently using an abrasive chop-saw, but it ties up an operator. If we can make the cuts in a reasonable time, they can program the saw, possibly setup a bundle of rounds and do other tasks while the saw cuts away.

Thank you all for the advice so far.

Most horizontal saws are adjustable downforce type. I know mine is. I just add whatever lump of steel is lying around on top of the arm.....

It is too bad that nobody makes a bandsaw with an eccentric axle which could be independently powered to slowly change the angle of the blade in the cut. Same principle as one used when hack sawing something by hand, you tilt the saw to various angles to reduce the drag length.

Your cut speed is slowing because the material is slowly work hardening. If you can keep the feed up there will be less work hardening and better blade life , too.

HuFlungDung said:

It is too bad that nobody makes a bandsaw with an eccentric axle which could be independently powered to slowly change the angle of the blade in the cut. Same principle as one used when hack sawing something by hand, you tilt the saw to various angles to reduce the drag length.

Click to expand...

Ramped-back blades have been around for a few years now. In short, the back of the blade is ground with a slight "wave" profile after being welded. As the waves run across the guides, it in escence changes the tooth-line's angle across the guides - and creates the rocking motion that you describe with the hacksaw... Simonds estimates it reduces cutting force/increases performance by around 40%. Works best of larger diameter material, and in tough materials - Inconels, difficult stainless, D2, etc... Simonds is not the only people doing this to their blades, but I think they were one of the earlier companies to do it. I've not had a chance to use this myself. I'm not sure if this manganese-steel job is large enough in diameter to warrant a ramped-back blade or not.

Video explaining...
Simonds_Sinewave.mp4 - YouTube

Video showing...
sinewave.wmv - YouTube

Their saw is a W-9. We had the feed force all the way open near the full 2” cut, but it seemed still not enough.

Click to expand...

I would still encourage you to use a scale to find out for sure how much pressure is being applied to the blade.

I bought my saw untested. After I got it cleaned up I went to set the feed pressure. No matter how much I fiddled with the valve I couldn't get it to apply hardly any pressure. Turns out the threaded rod in the valve was too short and wasn't working like it should. I had to make a new rod in order to get the valve to actually adjust the blade pressure.

Attention MR.DUNG

HuFlungDung said:

It is too bad that nobody makes a bandsaw with an eccentric axle which could be independently powered to slowly change the angle of the blade in the cut. Same principle as one used when hack sawing something by hand, you tilt the saw to various angles to reduce the drag length.

Click to expand...

MR. DUNG,your idea for a rotating EXCENTRIC PIVOT SHAFT on a horizontal band saw is brilliant. About a year ago ,I did some experiments with controlled tooth engagement bandsawing. I mounted 4 inch stock in my slow turning lathe chuck and used a portaband saw mounted on the carriage. The results were very good.My Chinese portaband burned up and other things caught my fancy. You have inspired me to look into this further. Thank you Edwin Dirnbeck

Old school method

In the 60s ,I had to cut 5 inch dia. amco bronze with a plain old horizontal wellsaw. We set a stop in about the center of the bar ,cut about an inch deep lift,rotate repeat until done. It was slow and you had to stand there ,but it did work. Edwin Dirnbeck

edwin dirnbeck said:

MR. DUNG,your idea for a rotating EXCENTRIC PIVOT SHAFT on a horizontal band saw is brilliant. About a year ago ,I did some experiments with controlled tooth engagement bandsawing. I mounted 4 inch stock in my slow turning lathe chuck and used a portaband saw mounted on the carriage. The results were very good.My Chinese portaband burned up and other things caught my fancy. You have inspired me to look into this further. Thank you Edwin Dirnbeck

Click to expand...

Shucks You can call me Hu, or you can call me Dung, or you can call me HuFlung, or you can all me Flungdung, but ya doesn't have to call me Mister

Atention,my old freind HUIEI

HuFlungDung said:

Shucks You can call me Hu, or you can call me Dung, or you can call me HuFlung, or you can all me Flungdung, but ya doesn't have to call me Mister

Click to expand...

HUIE, found this disc that I sawcut about a year ago,I sawcut mutiple discs rotating and non rotating.This was not a very scientific setup. The rotating cuts were about 30% faster and much more accurate. I plan on redoing and videoing this setup.But I am thinking about your idea also. Edwin Dirnbeck

Here are the pictures of the rotating bandsaw experiment


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