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  1. #61
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    There's is a lot about our patent system that I disagree with. I find it questionable that making a common item out of a material that someone else invented is worthy of patent protection. Now if they patented a process for making guitar picks out of a notoriously difficult to work with material, I think I would feel different.

    That being said, these are the folks who own the patent on this pick.

    BlueChip Picks | The perfect connection to your instrument.

    Teryk

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

  2. Likes Mike1974 liked this post
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    I see what the original question is (custom made router bit...), but I am a little offput personally by how OP shoots down almost every single thing from "professional" machinist on a machinist forum. IE the saw blades breaking- if that is true as you stated 3 in an hour/day whatever, something is wrong plain and simple, but whatever.

    Also, and I am not a musician or anything, but the people selling the "fake" tortoise shell picks (farm raised turtles) claim they are the best and beat the casein(?) plastic ones...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mTeryk View Post
    There's is a lot about our patent system that I disagree with. I find it questionable that making a common item out of a material that someone else invented is worthy of patent protection. Now if they patented a process for making guitar picks out of a notoriously difficult to work with material, I think I would feel different.

    That being said, these are the folks who own the patent on this pick.

    BlueChip Picks | The perfect connection to your instrument.

    Teryk

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
    Thanks for your post. A couple of clarifications.

    1) I don't know the folks personally, but we have nothing but praise for BC. We think they are a fabulous company and make nothing but world-class products. If you go to the Acoustic Guitar Forum and look up my posts, you will find HUNDREDS of glowing reviews about their products from yours truly. Hundreds. And not just theirs. People tell us they often do business with us because we're the only pick company in the industry who openly recommends other people's product. And I do. Every day. Why? Because my personal integrity is more important to me than the almighty dollar, and I'd be lying through my teeth if I said they make crappy products. They don't. So I tell people how wonderful their products are.

    2) Correction: Unless something has changed, the company owns a patent APPLICATION that has been in circulation for ten years, since 2009, not a patent. An application, that's all. In other words, they own a piece of paper that has cost them tens of thousands of dollars. All 17 claims have been turned down flat, twice. Not a patent. An application, nothing more. From a business perspective, I think it was a very smart move. And, believe it or not, I'd love to see it granted to them. I always wish the best for everyone in our industry, and I don't look at other pick companies as "competition." I wasn't raised that way. If something has been granted, I'd love to know about it. I'm too busy to skulk around the USPTO website every day. I hope they get it. It would be great for their business. More importantly, a strong vendor in one's category brings everybody up with them, and we all benefit.

    3) Vespel is a tiny portion of our business -- less than 5%. I could drop it tomorrow and it wouldn't even be a speed bump. If you look at our store page

    store | charmedlife

    you will see a number of gorgeous looking picks in red, blue, faux tortoise, and what we call "flame." This is 90% of our business. This is a material called casein plastic -- yes, it's actually made from milk. This is our core business. We have more than a dozen colors of this same material and will be rolling them out periodically.

    I'm happy to answer any other questions people may have. And feel free to stop by AGF and look up any of my posts -- there are several thousand.

    thanks,
    #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I see what the original question is (custom made router bit...), but I am a little offput personally by how OP shoots down almost every single thing from "professional" machinist on a machinist forum. IE the saw blades breaking- if that is true as you stated 3 in an hour/day whatever, something is wrong plain and simple, but whatever.

    Also, and I am not a musician or anything, but the people selling the "fake" tortoise shell picks (farm raised turtles) claim they are the best and beat the casein(?) plastic ones...
    Mike, thanks for posting.

    I wish I was wrong about Vespel breaking CNC blades, Mike. It would solve a whole host of problems, believe me. But I was right there with one of the best CNC houses in Orange County broke three blades in cuccession -- Bam! Bam! Bam! -- right before my eyes. Vespel is probably the most rugged plastic in the world. It is known for being difficult to machine. A lot of shops won't even touch Vespel. Again, I wish I was making this up.

    I have spent thousands of hours of research and tens of thousands of dollars attacking these issues. I am not randomly "shooting down" machinists who know more than me. I'd LOVE for you folks to find a solution for me. Most of the suggested approaches have already been tried by me -- at great expense.

    People in all sorts of businesses make all sorts of claims about all sorts of products. I'm not sure which company you're referring to on the farmed turtles (I believe there are several), but more power to them. One thing that people find different about me is I don't try to predict how someone will react to our product. I tell them talk to other players, not me. There are too many variables. I can tell you, though, that we have the longest return policy in the industry -- 35 days -- and we rarely get returns.

    What is referred to as "genuine tortoise shell" comes from one turtle, and only one. It is the Hawksbill Sea Turtle. This material has been used for millennia -- back to ancient Egypt, and beyond -- for its stunning visual appeal. It also happens to make what many, but not all, people say is the best guitar pick on the planet.

    I have not played those other products, but even if I have I would never say anything negative. I just don't do that.

    thanks,
    #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    You had my interest peaked until I saw this. I machine a lot of Vespel SP-XX. I also have a passion for exotic acoustic guitars (mainly Taylor and Gibson) so I have no problem spending $5K+ for a hand made guitar, or $50+ on strings and even a $40 pick.

    9" of 1.5" SP-2 runs just under $3000 and you want to be cheap on tooling and equipment? When I machine this stuff my ass puckers every time a .020 cut off blade starts its job but yet you can justify "experimenting" with this but yet want to be cheap on manufacturing?

    I just went over to the shop and picked a piece of scrap (What little there is) and half ass carved a pick out of it and you are right, It does sound nice, a very mellow tone and nice feel. I guess that's why someone already filed a patent on Vespel stringed instrument picks.

    US20090249938A1 filed by Matt and Allen Goins. Unless that's you?

    US20090249938A1 - Pick for Use with a Stringed Instrument
    - Google Patents
    As mentioned immediately above, I'm very supportive of the Goins patent application and fully support it. I think it was a very smart business move on their part. I applaud it. It would actually help my business and the whole category if USPTO granted even a few of the claims, because it would legitimize in the industry what most guitar players see as snake oil or smoke and mirrors. Until they play one. But I don't see how a guitar pick shape that is more than 100 years old, made with a material not made by them, will ever be granted any kind of patent protection. I'm happy to be proven wrong, and this would be a great thing for their company and every other pick company.

    BTW, I'm an English prof. I never had the intention of starting a company of any kind, let alone a guitar pick company. I totally backed into this. I've played -- still play -- genuine TS picks for forty years and was looking for a suitable, legal replacement. I bought $100 worth of this material and started making picks for myself. Then people asked me to make one for them.

    One minor correction. You mention SP-2. We use SP-1, which is less expensive. I'm not aware of anyone out there making picks from any of the other Vespel grades, although that will happen someday for sure.

    If you've found a way to successfully cut Vespel rod at .020" without breaking blades, I'm happy to talk offline. I haven't found anyone coming anywhere close to that. And if they are even willing, they tell me up front that I will replace any blades broken in the process, to the tune of $175 per. I have not met a single CNC shop willing to take that risk upon themselves. Not one.

    I've found a slicing shop that can do it, but they want $10 a unit, with a 90-day lead time. That makes no sense. At that rate I'm better off cutting this stuff with a bandsaw in my shop. That way I don't lay out $5 grand for 400 units for ONE MODEL, when I offer up to ten different models, and wait three months for the privilege. I'm happy to be proven wrong, would LOVE to be proven wrong, after more than four years of searching.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by #5 ii Alive! View Post
    Mike, thanks for posting.

    I wish I was wrong about Vespel breaking CNC blades, Mike. It would solve a whole host of problems, believe me. But I was right there with one of the best CNC houses in Orange County broke three blades in cuccession -- Bam! Bam! Bam! -- right before my eyes. Vespel is probably the most rugged plastic in the world. It is known for being difficult to machine. A lot of shops won't even touch Vespel. Again, I wish I was making this up.

    I have spent thousands of hours of research and tens of thousands of dollars attacking these issues. I am not randomly "shooting down" machinists who know more than me. I'd LOVE for you folks to find a solution for me. Most of the suggested approaches have already been tried by me -- at great expense.

    People in all sorts of businesses make all sorts of claims about all sorts of products. I'm not sure which company you're referring to on the farmed turtles (I believe there are several), but more power to them. One thing that people find different about me is I don't try to predict how someone will react to our product. I tell them talk to other players, not me. There are too many variables. I can tell you, though, that we have the longest return policy in the industry -- 35 days -- and we rarely get returns.

    What is referred to as "genuine tortoise shell" comes from one turtle, and only one. It is the Hawksbill Sea Turtle. This material has been used for millennia -- back to ancient Egypt, and beyond -- for its stunning visual appeal. It also happens to make what many, but not all, people say is the best guitar pick on the planet.

    I have not played those other products, but even if I have I would never say anything negative. I just don't do that.

    thanks,
    #5
    I am not saying I know anything about your particular material because I don't. However, when you talk about tough material, you probably don't even know that what you might consider to be a tough plastic(s) likely doesn't hold a candle to some of the materials we (machinists in general, not everyone of course) cut on a daily or weekly basis. I also cannot say if that vespal or whatever is not a pain to work with, but we have 2 different meanings of "tough" I am sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I am not saying I know anything about your particular material because I don't. However, when you talk about tough material, you probably don't even know that what you might consider to be a tough plastic(s) likely doesn't hold a candle to some of the materials we (machinists in general, not everyone of course) cut on a daily or weekly basis. I also cannot say if that vespal or whatever is not a pain to work with, but we have 2 different meanings of "tough" I am sure.
    Agreed, Mike, I'm certain that the metals you folks machine are far tougher and stronger than Vespel, which is why I'm here -- to learn from people who know more than me. However, according to the tech folks at DuPont, whom I've spoken to on more than one occasion, Vespel has some kind of weird "gripping" quality that takes place when it is heated up during sawing, so it actually GRIPS the blade as it passes. This, apparently, is what causes the snapping of CNC blades. Perhaps someone else will come in here and comment upon this. This is the same thing I've been told by the many machine shops I've talked to about machining this stuff.

    BTW, Vespel is used in some instances to replace metal industrial bearings. In aircraft, in particular, it is lighter than many metals and has better (longer) wear characteristics.

    I should add that this entire discussion will likely be moot within the next 10-20 years. 3-D printing would appear to be the solution of the future. No cutting, no kerf losses, no wasted material. This is what is coming down the pike.

    thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by #5 ii Alive! View Post
    Vespel has some kind of weird "gripping" quality that takes place when it is heated up during sawing, so it actually GRIPS the blade as it passes.
    It would be interesting to hear if thin blades coated with BAM or diamond-like carbon could overcome that 'gripping'.

    Material slicker than Teflon discovered by accident | New Scientist

    BAM and DLC are both more friction-free that Teflon.

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    It seems that most any way of cutting /shaping would lose almost as much/or more material as you use. Cutting with perhaps a .100 saw to produce a .025 to .050" part.

    I used a trick for sharpening precision circular blades I would run a nylon finger to the side of the blade to reduce any wobble to zero., circular spin the blade OD grind to see all blade hitting, then watch each blade at back-off to a sharp corner edge. My resharpened blades would out perform any and all new blades. carpenters would bring me brand new blades to sharpen.
    Yes for a 60 to 80 tooth sharpening took more time that just grinding off a finger..

    Yes CNC grinding and probing every toot would be good but hard to justify a 200k machine for resharpening.

    Question: Do you cut with coolant or a cold air pipe. I would think a high quality chop saw, with controlled RPM close to the part circular saw blade, with coolant or cold pipe would be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    It seems that most any way of cutting /shaping would lose almost as much/or more material as you use. Cutting with perhaps a .100 saw to produce a .025 to .050" part.
    I sketched something up real quick to get an idea if I am on the same page...

    pick.jpg pick2.jpg

    For reference, that circle is 1.5" dia, and the extrusion is 3" long. If this is what I am thinking, I agree with michiganbuck, you are "wasting" far more material in the outer shape than slicing it into the desired thickness. In my humble opinion, you are focusing too much thought and energy on how to slice these things without losing too much material with/in the kerf of whatever cutting method. That said, would something like this work?

    https://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-37080...gateway&sr=8-3

    Also, I don't think making a single router bit to cut one entire side (ref line in above pics) is viable.

    1) it seems like it would be a very aggressive cut with alot of surface area
    2) lining up for the second cut it would be PITA, even with a little jig you are probably going to see enough mismatch to make it undesirable
    3) would be much easier to machine this in a cnc mill standing the rod up in the z axis and profiling around it

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    If you've found a way to successfully cut Vespel rod at .020" without breaking blades, I'm happy to talk offline. I haven't found anyone coming anywhere close to that. And if they are even willing, they tell me up front that I will replace any blades broken in the process, to the tune of $175 per. I have not met a single CNC shop willing to take that risk upon themselves. Not one.
    Interesting, I've been making this same part since 2008 out of SP1 and 2 and really like the way it machines. Holds size good, not abrasive on tools, Just expensive. It has a .015 face groove and an .015 OD grove behind the neck all done with HSS Thinbit tooling as well as the part off op using a .020 Thinbit blade.

    Now, If your picks are being parted off from full diameter to center then maybe I could see a .020 blade popping but still doable. Someone telling you a blade cost $175 a piece should be a sign to move on to the next shop! I just pulled out a standard/classic and looks like 1.125 material is sufficient to machine it from. Ok, you need a .562 long blade to get the cut, but let's say .575 for clearance. A 1"X.125"X6" HSS cut off tool runs a whopping $10.
    Then, over to the EDM and finger cam two G1 lines of code to slice the side of the blade back .575 X .020. cycle start, 5-10 minutes later and you have a finished blade that can be cut back many times if need be. Not sure what kind of blades their pricing you but that's more than most complete tool blocks alone.

    On another note, I just looked up the properties between SP1 and SP2/22 and I see a possibility why you are having some difficulty. The stuff runs up to 60 Rockwell. Yeah, just what I want, A guitar pick with the hardness of a meat cleaver hacking away on a $20 pack of Elixir stings just so I can replace daily! Maybe consider some SP-211 with graphite and Teflon at less than 20 Rockwell.


    Back on topic (sort of), Why not just Water-jet out of sheet (Nested) and then run around it with a 1/2 mill concave cutter to round the edges and be done with it. Yes, You could try to wet lap polish it but in the end its Vespel and will still be that ugly brown. Most musicians don't really care what their picks look like anyway.

    There are many ways one could go about this project. If it where me trying to save money the solution is simple. Order a 10" square sheet, go to grabcad and download a standard pick DXF, take it to my local office supply shop that makes ink stamps, give them the DXF and let them nest and burn them out on their Eppilog. Now, you've spent just north of a grand for a 1mill 10X10 sheet and 20 bucks at the print shop to get around 120 picks. Back to the house and toss em in my gun brass polisher,,,,done. $4800 worth of finished product and never entered a machine shop.



    vespel.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post

    On another note, I just looked up the properties between SP1 and SP2/22 and I see a possibility why you are having some difficulty. The stuff runs up to 60 Rockwell!!!! Yeah, just what I want, A guitar pick with the hardness of a meat cleaver hacking away on a $20 pack of Elixir stings just so I can replace daily! Maybe consider some SP-211 with graphite and Teflon at less than 20 Rockwell.

    That is Rockwell E hardness. You are thinking in terms of the Rockwell C scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Interesting, I've been making this same part since 2008 out of SP1 and 2 and really like the way it machines. Holds size good, not abrasive on tools, Just expensive. It has a .015 face groove and an .015 OD grove behind the neck all done with HSS Thinbit tooling as well as the part off op using a .020 Thinbit blade.

    Now, If your picks are being parted off from full diameter to center then maybe I could see a .020 blade popping but still doable. Someone telling you a blade cost $175 a piece should be a sign to move on to the next shop! I just pulled out a standard/classic and looks like 1.125 material is sufficient to machine it from. Ok, you need a .562 long blade to get the cut, but let's say .575 for clearance. A 1"X.125"X6" HSS cut off tool runs a whopping $10.
    Then, over to the EDM and finger cam two G1 lines of code to slice the side of the blade back .575 X .020. cycle start, 5-10 minutes later and you have a finished blade that can be cut back many times if need be. Not sure what kind of blades their pricing you but that's more than most complete tool blocks alone.

    On another note, I just looked up the properties between SP1 and SP2/22 and I see a possibility why you are having some difficulty. The stuff runs up to 60 Rockwell. Yeah, just what I want, A guitar pick with the hardness of a meat cleaver hacking away on a $20 pack of Elixir stings just so I can replace daily! Maybe consider some SP-211 with graphite and Teflon at less than 20 Rockwell.


    Back on topic (sort of), Why not just Water-jet out of sheet (Nested) and then run around it with a 1/2 mill concave cutter to round the edges and be done with it. Yes, You could try to wet lap polish it but in the end its Vespel and will still be that ugly brown. Most musicians don't really care what their picks look like anyway.

    There are many ways one could go about this project. If it where me trying to save money the solution is simple. Order a 10" square sheet, go to grabcad and download a standard pick DXF, take it to my local office supply shop that makes ink stamps, give them the DXF and let them nest and burn them out on their Eppilog. Now, you've spent just north of a grand for a 1mill 10X10 sheet and 20 bucks at the print shop to get around 120 picks. Back to the house and toss em in my gun brass polisher,,,,done. $4800 worth of finished product and never entered a machine shop.



    vespel.jpg
    Coder, thanks for your post. I'm not sure if I understand all your points, but let me clarify one point at a time, if I may, and the most important one. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding your approach.

    Vespel sheets (they call them plate in the plastics world) are not viable, at least in the scenario you are discussing. They come in at 1/4" thickness, unless someone has a source I'm unaware of. Vespel HATES laser, at least CO2 laser. Anything above about 1.0 mm (.040") becomes very charred; above 2.0 mm (.080") it's unusable. Again, unless I'm missing something, you're talking about laser cutting a Vespel sheet 1/4" thick, we're talking roughly 6.0 mm (.250", if I have my math right). Impossible to do, at least with CO2.

    Am I understanding correctly what your suggestion was? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Thank you very much.

    #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by David_M View Post
    It would be interesting to hear if thin blades coated with BAM or diamond-like carbon could overcome that 'gripping'.

    Material slicker than Teflon discovered by accident | New Scientist

    BAM and DLC are both more friction-free that Teflon.
    Interesting, David, and something worth exploring. Thanks very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    It seems that most any way of cutting /shaping would lose almost as much/or more material as you use. Cutting with perhaps a .100 saw to produce a .025 to .050" part.

    I used a trick for sharpening precision circular blades I would run a nylon finger to the side of the blade to reduce any wobble to zero., circular spin the blade OD grind to see all blade hitting, then watch each blade at back-off to a sharp corner edge. My resharpened blades would out perform any and all new blades. carpenters would bring me brand new blades to sharpen.
    Yes for a 60 to 80 tooth sharpening took more time that just grinding off a finger..

    Yes CNC grinding and probing every toot would be good but hard to justify a 200k machine for resharpening.

    Question: Do you cut with coolant or a cold air pipe. I would think a high quality chop saw, with controlled RPM close to the part circular saw blade, with coolant or cold pipe would be good.
    Michigan, up to this point I've been jobbing out the cutting and slicing. I'm in the process of exploring whether this can be done in a home shop, rather than CNC. The CNC folks have been using liquid coolant.

    Anyway you go at this, the appropriate kerf loss per unit is about equal to the unit itself. In other words, no matter how you buy the material, if you produce a unit that is, let us say, .040" thick (1.0 mm), you are losing .040" on the cut per unit. I have not seen a viable alternative in all the years I've been looking. I'm willing to be proven wrong. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

    And the other thing is, because of the cost of the material, very few shops will even touch it. Very few. Again, happy to be proven wrong.

    #5

    Either that, or, as I said, I can pay a jobber I found ten dollars per unit for the cut, at that is about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I sketched something up real quick to get an idea if I am on the same page...

    pick.jpg pick2.jpg

    For reference, that circle is 1.5" dia, and the extrusion is 3" long. If this is what I am thinking, I agree with michiganbuck, you are "wasting" far more material in the outer shape than slicing it into the desired thickness. In my humble opinion, you are focusing too much thought and energy on how to slice these things without losing too much material with/in the kerf of whatever cutting method. That said, would something like this work?

    https://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-37080...gateway&sr=8-3

    Also, I don't think making a single router bit to cut one entire side (ref line in above pics) is viable.

    1) it seems like it would be a very aggressive cut with alot of surface area
    2) lining up for the second cut it would be PITA, even with a little jig you are probably going to see enough mismatch to make it undesirable
    3) would be much easier to machine this in a cnc mill standing the rod up in the z axis and profiling around it
    Mike, here's a quote from a Vespel tech manual regarding temperature:

    "Since SP and ST polyimides do not melt and have no
    glass transition temperature (Tg) or softening point as
    measured by the usual methods, strength and moduli
    decrease with temperature in a nearly linear manner.
    This contrasts to the usual engineering thermoplastic
    which shows a large decrease in these properties as the
    Tg is approached."

    I don't know for certain, but I'm skeptical that 350 F would even make a dent in this stuff. In all my communications with DuPont through the years, as well as all their official machining guides, I don't recall ever seeing an instruction to cut with a hot wire.

    Here's the full PDF. https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/d...ts/h53668e.pdf

    I honesty don't understand the logic of not caring about kerf loss. DuPont sells these in rods 1.50" x 38". Let's say each unit cut is 1.0 mm (.040") thick, with a kerf loss of the same thickness 1.0 mm (.040"). Just to discuss approx numbers, 38 inches equals roughly 965 mm. If we figure 2.0 mm per unit (unit thickness and kerf, combined), the yield is approximately 482 unit. Now take that same piece of stock with the same unit thickness but with half the kerf loss, 0.5 mm (.020"). I come up with 643 units -- same raw material, same shape, same everything.

    Let's say these units sell for $30 each. Here's the breakdown in sales:

    482 x $30.00 = $14,460
    643 x $30.00 = $19,290

    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but $5000 of additional profit off the same piece of material is a huge number. To me. I can't speak for anyone else.

    Is there something I'm not seeing here? Again, happy to be corrected.

    So for me, $5000 is a very good motivator -- the best motivator -- to be obsessed with kerf loss.

    thanks,
    #5

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    “Anyway you go at this, the appropriate kerf loss per unit is about equal to the unit itself. In other words, no matter how you buy the material, if you produce a unit that is, let us say, .040" thick (1.0 mm), you are losing .040" on the cut per unit. I have not seen a viable alternative in all the years I've been looking. I'm willing to be proven wrong. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong. ”

    “They come in at 1/4" thickness, unless someone has a source I'm unaware of. ”



    I don’t think I understand where you are coming from.

    Vespel is widely available in .062” sheet.
    And..
    Available direct from the dealer you have stated you use:

    Vespel(R) Polyimide SP-1 Plaque, Vespel(R), Brown, (0.062 in x 10 in x 10 in), Unfilled Polymer | Curbell Plastics


    You just spelled out what others have told you in this thread- lots of waste in slicing this from rod.
    You said you can provide a .dwg
    Have you nested that on sheet to see yield /cost per unit.

    I bet dollar for a donut that those BlueChip picks are cut from sheet.
    I may be very uncharitable with this but you are starting to sound like you are denying some plain realities to get a answer you want to hear.

    I understand you may be invested in you existing process but if you are asking for advice from people who have experience....

    I am not a top dog but I have worked in shops my whole life and owned my own more than twenty years.
    Others here- top in their field.
    Worth listening to.

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    Professional Plastics offers SP-1 in .031 increments up to .5". They even have the pricing on their website.

    https://www.professionalplastics.com/VESPELSP1-DUPONT

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Professional Plastics offers SP-1 in .031 increments up to .5". They even have the pricing on their website.

    https://www.professionalplastics.com/VESPELSP1-DUPONT
    .031 10x10 for $1,000..how many can you get with that sheet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    .031 10x10 for $1,000..how many can you get with that sheet?

    I plugged it into the Omax earlier and without optimization the nest came out to 120 based on the file I pulled from grabcad.


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