Selecting Quality Insert
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  1. #1
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    Default Selecting Quality Insert

    Since I am no means a skilled machinist but am in the process for trying to get acquainted with the lathe I picked up, there has been a occasion or two where I had made a purchase and it was junk...CHINA made quality is sub standard... I know you get what you paid for...just noticed that there was a huge price difference in the various items...And felt that some of the items I purchased were priced right for the novice user and not for full production
    So lets begin with Carbide inserts for my holders...The Brand Specifically
    So with this said I do allot of my shopping on Flea Bay for hopefully a good buy...
    I have learned that one of the bigger names is Kennametal and when I'm looking for inserts Kennametal is like $10 an insert and higher...
    So I have shopped around and tried to identify something a bit more in a reasonable price range...
    I have stumbled upon a Brand Mitsubishi and Sandvik along with Iscar, Sumitomo, Valenite...
    My limited experience with the brands are indeed very limited...I have used the crap from China that came from the holder and it did not last long at all...I have used the Mitsubishi and Sandvik which I have gotten better life out of them as compared to the afore mentioned country...The Sandvik are made in Sweden and the Mitsubishi are made in Japan...I can get the Sandvik for somewhere in the neighborhood of $5 apiece...I try and buy a box of 10... the Mitsubishi are around $25 for a box of 10...
    So I guess the question here are the Kennametal that much better to warrant the price?
    Is there something better then what I use that wont break the bank?
    In all fairness the Iscar, Sumitomo and Valenite I haven't really done any research on
    So I am open to all suggestions on MFG to consider but the cost may be prohibitive unless the Bigger names that are $10 apiece are that much better...
    Thanks for any input
    Paul

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    I happened to buy some Mitsubishi inserts on ebay, they seem ok.
    I do some nasty repair work cutting through welds and crappy stuff so I like to use cheap inserts, that MSC sells for that.
    I was using Valenite and Iscar, but Valenite seems to be gone, and I have been buying Walter inserts for the clean work, and they are great, but still using Iscar grooving, and other tools also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasbowhunter View Post
    Since I am no means a skilled machinist but am in the process for trying to get acquainted with the lathe I picked up, there has been a occasion or two where I had made a purchase and it was junk...CHINA made quality is sub standard... I know you get what you paid for...just noticed that there was a huge price difference in the various items...And felt that some of the items I purchased were priced right for the novice user and not for full production
    So lets begin with Carbide inserts for my holders...The Brand Specifically
    So with this said I do allot of my shopping on Flea Bay for hopefully a good buy...
    I have learned that one of the bigger names is Kennametal and when I'm looking for inserts Kennametal is like $10 an insert and higher...
    So I have shopped around and tried to identify something a bit more in a reasonable price range...
    I have stumbled upon a Brand Mitsubishi and Sandvik along with Iscar, Sumitomo, Valenite...
    My limited experience with the brands are indeed very limited...I have used the crap from China that came from the holder and it did not last long at all...I have used the Mitsubishi and Sandvik which I have gotten better life out of them as compared to the afore mentioned country...The Sandvik are made in Sweden and the Mitsubishi are made in Japan...I can get the Sandvik for somewhere in the neighborhood of $5 apiece...I try and buy a box of 10... the Mitsubishi are around $25 for a box of 10...
    So I guess the question here are the Kennametal that much better to warrant the price?
    Is there something better then what I use that wont break the bank?
    In all fairness the Iscar, Sumitomo and Valenite I haven't really done any research on
    So I am open to all suggestions on MFG to consider but the cost may be prohibitive unless the Bigger names that are $10 apiece are that much better...
    Thanks for any input
    Paul
    Problem is .. all the "real" expertise as to inserts b'long balls-to-the-walls CNC spindle mavins. Because a fraction of a cent per brazillion parts MATTERS in THEIR game.

    And does not often translate well to older manual machines..of vastly different HP, speeds, loading, and stiffness.

    Not to mention insert optimization is HIGHLY alloy, heat, and even "batch" from a metals supplier relevant as to which insert and which coating (if any) gives the best results for any given tasking.

    "Mediocre" results thus come to dominate.

    And be argued about. Not often to much gain except to "refresh" the discussion.
    And continue wasting time ... at a new level!



    Soooo "good luck in your quest!"

    Meanwhile?

    Contact "exkenna" for a sane start at it.

    He's done that research for you as to adapting extemsive experience from the broader industry menu .. to a subset of what "JF works" ... for the older manual machine general needs.

    Already. For-real.

    Not just for calling wild-turkeys who can't even tell the same lie two posts in a row, if-even they still understood the contradictions in it!


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    Many moons ago I used to choose my own inserts... Spend HOURS digging through the J&L
    catalog.. (Remember them?). And at least 50% of the time, I wasn't happy with what I chose.

    You know how I choose my inserts now.. I DON'T.

    Of course I know what size I need and what nose radius I need, but
    beyond that, its completely out of my hands.

    Part of the price of every insert is paying somebody to figure out
    what inserts work the best in what situations.

    Contact "exkenna" for a sane start at it.

    He's done that research for you as to adapting extensive experience from the broader industry menu .. to a subset of what "JF works" ... for the older manual machine general needs.
    ^
    This.
    Pick up the phone or fire off an e-mail to your preferred vendor. Curtis aka Exkenna is pretty
    good. "Curtis I need a CNMG432 that will do X", a few days later it shows up on my door step
    and it works.

    Its not worth the hassle to figure out everything about inserts when there are people that
    already know this stuff inside and out, and they are nothing more than a phone call away.

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    On a whim I recently bought a set of 4 tools and a 10 pack of inserts for less than $30 shipped !! China made ! Have been using them CI aluminum ,1018 steel. Work quite well ! But over the years have learned that positive rake with chip break work the best with 1000 lb 12X36 USA lathe. However I really like my ISCAR insert style parting tools. Not all cheap China stuff is crap but ,a lot is for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEvans View Post
    On a whim I recently bought a set of 4 tools and a 10 pack of inserts for less than $30 shipped !! China made ! Have been using them CI aluminum ,1018 steel. Work quite well ! But over the years have learned that positive rake with chip break work the best with 1000 lb 12X36 USA lathe. However I really like my ISCAR insert style parting tools. Not all cheap China stuff is crap but ,a lot is for sure.
    The whole tribe, as a class, of "modern era" pos-rake (mostly) Carbides is "enough" better than BAD grinds of HSS off a naif's unskilled hands at it? .... That even the WORST of inserts look a right marvel as heaven-sent blessing to the noobs.

    I suspect that's why every oscillating Richard as gets hands on a SB 9 or HF LSO figures a "QCTP" for his first purchase?

    Absent ABILITY to shape and sharpen HSS, or the will to learn it, by comparison it will for-dam' sure make his d**k seem a foot longer and wider!

    I'm penurious. Enough HSS/Cobalt / Stellite stashed to last me several lifetimes, 90 % of it rough shaped, if not also sharp, and in every way conventional, plus more than a few that were-never!

    If something is to be chewed but briefly, then be discarded as used-up shite?

    I'd rather put the money into sharper-siped boots for the motorcar or fresh "Chinese-type" veg, choice steaks, and Young's of Grimsby fish in the 'fridge-freezer!

    "You are what you eat", and I'm hard enough to git along with without no Carbides infusion transferred from stingy wallet to grumpier disposition!

    What wine goes with a meal of inserts anyway?

    Oh. Yazz. Brown-Brothers Impovrishyah down-under whine or a recent Napa valley aged in burnt-to-ashes blame-flame.


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    This, How carbide inserts are made by Sandvik Coromant - YouTube is the best explanation I know of for why top quality inserts cost what they do. As the video shows it's a highly automated process where labor costs have very little to do with there final price. And being automated, then to produce an insert of equal quality, durability and performance is going to cost pretty much the same no matter what country there being made in. Simple logic shows there's very little room to produce the same quality at a vastly cheaper price unless there cutting a lot of corners at every step in the process. Even at $10-$35 + each for some inserts it's surprising there still that cheap after watching how there made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neanderthal mach View Post
    This, How carbide inserts are made by Sandvik Coromant - YouTube is the best explanation I know of for why top quality inserts cost what they do. As the video shows it's a highly automated process where labor costs have very little to do with there final price. And being automated, then to produce an insert of equal quality, durability and performance is going to cost pretty much the same no matter what country there being made in. Simple logic shows there's very little room to produce the same quality at a vastly cheaper price unless there cutting a lot of corners at every step in the process. Even at $10-$35 + each for some inserts it's surprising there still that cheap after watching how there made.
    Fair enuf'

    Modern industry would freeze in its tracks without "inserts", however great or humble... No question about it!

    But.. CNC money-wall banger might push that insert at a full ten times the RPM of a smallholder's Old Iron, stitch "many" lighter cuts almost too fast to watch, run multiple hundreds of parts per edge, cost very small money for each.

    Meanwhile, back at Chaos Court, there's but the ONE part to make at all, the top-RPM is ten percent what the number-smasher can do, feeds and speeds but a fraction as well, so the best part of the "goodness" paid into the insert ain't even reached before some OTHER shape is needed for a different alloy, size, shape, and tasking, different hour if not week.

    "Cycle time" is 99% messing about pondering, planning, getting material, then setup, pre, <run>, then measurement <more run> repeat 'til final checking.

    For a "part". Quantity ONE. Ten of the same item might be a Very BIG DEAL!

    This the hobby world. Or even R&D, prototype, repair, rebuild, and fab-support
    Need higher volume? Send it out and CNC it ... regardless.

    Mebbe one percent actual time in the cut? And the lathe is run four hours a WEEK, not eight to twenty-four hours a DAY.

    How much can be saved if the cut takes but half that one-percent when all the rest done ate the meal arredy? Or idle time has done?

    Where's the beef?

    Dime's worth of time to but quick-touch the existing edge of an already "veteran" and many years paid-for Rex-95 that will yield a hundred and more edges off the same blank... before it is short enuf to go over into the boring-bar cutter drawer for another life beyond.

    and Tenderloin, Sirloin. NY Strip. Denver cut, mostly!

    Sandvik has to eat?

    So do I!


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    Pretty much Kennametal and Iscar for me with Thinbit for small oddball sized grooving. Watch out on Ebay for deals on name brand that seem too good to be true, counterfeit stuff going around. I have gotten deals there but only buy from people with a varied collection of low volume odds and ends. Not some guy who looks like he has hundreds of packages of the exact same thing.

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    Another vote for Curtis. He suggested a couple to try, and they worked well, in fact really well. His prices seem very fair to me, and getting support from a guy that knows stuff is worth a lot. One of his sites is latheinserts.com, he might have more than one.
    He's a good guy too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Another vote for Curtis. He suggested a couple to try, and they worked well, in fact really well. His prices seem very fair to me, and getting support from a guy that knows stuff is worth a lot. One of his sites is latheinserts.com, he might have more than one.
    He's a good guy too.
    I'm not in the zone as a customer, but not one word but good words from those who HAVE been. I mean the guy is literally ex kenna(metal) with around thirty YEARS in the trade?

    SMALL LATHE TOOLING, AXA TOOLPOST, ccmt inserts, ccgt inserts

    Sure as Hell take his word over the tree-climber guy I hire every few years!




    Not to mention I ain't got 30 year to catch up, and he'd still be ahead off the head-start if even I tried to do!


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    Quote Originally Posted by neanderthal mach View Post
    This, How carbide inserts are made by Sandvik Coromant - YouTube is the best explanation I know of for why top quality inserts cost what they do. As the video shows it's a highly automated process where labor costs have very little to do with there final price. And being automated, then to produce an insert of equal quality, durability and performance is going to cost pretty much the same no matter what country there being made in. Simple logic shows there's very little room to produce the same quality at a vastly cheaper price unless there cutting a lot of corners at every step in the process. Even at $10-$35 + each for some inserts it's surprising there still that cheap after watching how there made.
    Interesting video on the process...With all that one might expect them to be much higher then they actually are sold for...Thanks for sharing...paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEvans View Post
    On a whim I recently bought a set of 4 tools and a 10 pack of inserts for less than $30 shipped !! China made ! Have been using them CI aluminum ,1018 steel. Work quite well ! But over the years have learned that positive rake with chip break work the best with 1000 lb 12X36 USA lathe. However I really like my ISCAR insert style parting tools. Not all cheap China stuff is crap but ,a lot is for sure.
    When you speak of positive rack is this the 2nd letter in the ID of the insert? If so I have been ordering the "C" which would be the 7* for my 12x36 lathe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Pretty much Kennametal and Iscar for me with Thinbit for small oddball sized grooving. Watch out on Ebay for deals on name brand that seem too good to be true, counterfeit stuff going around. I have gotten deals there but only buy from people with a varied collection of low volume odds and ends. Not some guy who looks like he has hundreds of packages of the exact same thing.
    yes Sir I have periodically watched from time to time and if a good/fair opportunity opens I would be all over them
    ISCAR was one I was nor aware of...thanks for the tip guys...paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I'm not in the zone as a customer, but not one word but good words from those who HAVE been. I mean the guy is literally ex kenna(metal) with around thirty YEARS in the trade?

    SMALL LATHE TOOLING, AXA TOOLPOST, ccmt inserts, ccgt inserts

    Sure as Hell take his word over the tree-climber guy I hire every few years!




    Not to mention I ain't got 30 year to catch up, and he'd still be ahead off the head-start if even I tried to do!

    Is this exkenna's site? I guess if I had of read the post before this one and correlated the two I would not have asked a dumb question...thanks...paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasbowhunter View Post
    Is this exkenna's site? I guess if I had of read the post before this one and correlated the two I would not have asked a dumb question...thanks...paul
    Obviously.. if he has been crafting speciality solutions for 30-odd years.. his smallholder selection is a general-purpose "starter" compromise only.

    That said, it's a far, far BETTER all-use start-point than any one with LESS experience is likely to come up with.

    I'm more enduringly "married" to my (many and several) beloved 4-way TP than the HSS/Stellite cutters. it's what I know best, and life has other demands.

    But .... IF .. ever.. I mess with a Multifix or a Tripan (f**k Aloris!)?

    I'd buy his goods to get started!

    QCTP and HSS / Cobalt / Tantung-G are not the easiest of blanket-sharers.

    QCTP wants fixed-location edges. Inserts are always. Hand-grounds are never.

    That basic.


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