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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Late to the party but I've always done these by ballizing. Basically you press precision steel balls through the bronze
    bushing to size it. It can be done with the rods in the motor actually.

    There's lots of vendors that will sell you steel balls sized in close increments. As you get close to the correct fit you
    just press the same ball through the bushing a few times more.

    One of the purported advantages of this approach is that it tends to lock the OD of the bushing hard into the
    features in the connecting rod end, and then it's less likely to spin later on.

    Oh, I kept the site:

    Bal-tec - Alphabetical Index
    Iíve never tried that, but Iím aware of the process and have that link saved in my reading list. I considered ordering some as they arenít expensive. Then I spoke to a fellow a couple of days ago that has been in the business since the beginning of time. Amongst other things, he sells cam bushings for Triumphs and he supplies them with the appropriate ball to size them. However, when I asked about using ball sizing on this particular rod and bushing he said no, I should hone it. He didnít like my barrel lap idea, but didnít say why. Maybe a case of someone with a machine shop who has a Sunnen rod hone wondering why anyone would do that.

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    I was trying to tell you that sintered bushings are not suitable for con rod bushings.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by mf205i View Post
    I was trying to tell you that sintered bushings are not suitable for con rod bushings.
    Mike
    Oops sorry. Re-read your post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    Trying to conjure up a knockoff of this from a basket of odds and ends.

    Attachment 325182
    Ah, but it be a daily driver when it's done? (there is a local man around here that *does* have an original Black Shadow as an everyday rider)

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    How much material do you have to remove? Are the bearings in fact Oilite (SAE 841) or something else? If you had only a thou or two to take out I'd lap them, any more and I'd bore them either on a lathe or mill, whichever you can control the size best.

    I used Timesaver to finish fit a 660 bronze acme nut I made for my baby Clausing mill, ordered 60, 80 & 100 grits (yellow) and wished I got the 40 too as even the medium didn't seem to work like AlOx compounds. It must break down as advertised as a year later the nut fits about the same, as mentioned tho cleaning properly might be just as effective.

    I ordered right off their site, shipping to Kanuckistan no problem: Timesaver Lapping Compounds - Micro Surface Corporation

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Ah, but it be a daily driver when it's done? (there is a local man around here that *does* have an original Black Shadow as an everyday rider)
    No definitely not. At least not in the configuration it will be in. My daily driver has an electric leg and lights. Although this one has a Shadow frame number, it will be a copy of the Lightning in the photo. Factory rearsets and 2” (open) pipes don’t allow use of a kick starter in their stock form. Also the carbs are the correct Amal TT variety that don’t come with idle stop (adjusting screws). The carbs can be used on the street (along with the Lightning cams), but not really that traffic friendly. It is being built to ride, but won’t see many hours of use and not likely any on the street. It will definitely not be like a lot of the show bikes that shine on the outside, but are one revolution away from chutney on the inside. A lot of time has gone into the engine and it still has a long way to go.

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    Back in the days before I had a Sunnen hone, I would use a brass lapping tool with Timesaver compound. Did many rods this way with good results. Bushings were made out of 932 bronze. Lapping tools are cheap, less than $20 for the size you will need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    ... it will be a copy of the Lightning in the photo.
    Are you going to make it a copy of a Lightning or are you going to make it go fast ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    How much material do you have to remove? Are the bearings in fact Oilite (SAE 841) or something else? If you had only a thou or two to take out I'd lap them, any more and I'd bore them either on a lathe or mill, whichever you can control the size best.

    I used Timesaver to finish fit a 660 bronze acme nut I made for my baby Clausing mill, ordered 60, 80 & 100 grits (yellow) and wished I got the 40 too as even the medium didn't seem to work like AlOx compounds. It must break down as advertised as a year later the nut fits about the same, as mentioned tho cleaning properly might be just as effective.

    I ordered right off their site, shipping to Kanuckistan no problem: Timesaver Lapping Compounds - Micro Surface Corporation
    No they aren’t oilite. I think I may have confused the issue because I mentioned an insert recommended by Oilite. Not much material has to be removed. The new bushings will slip over the pin now, but the ID will decrease once pressed into the rod. I have 6 versions of timesaver 3 are for hard material and 3 are for bronze etc. Don’t remember what the coarse grit is and I’m away from the shop at the moment. The barrel lap probably isn’t the best method, but for removing a small amount of material, I think it “should” be ok if done with care.

    Edit turns out I have 4 grades of each
    Last edited by Cyborg; 07-25-2021 at 10:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Are you going to make it a copy of a Lightning or are you going to make it go fast ?
    A copy of a Lightning. As close as possible to how it rolled out of the factory, so fast by 1950 standards, but not so fast by today’s standards. I do have the necessary bits to run it on alcohol, but will likely just use pump gas. It takes nitro to make them really come alive. It’s amazing what this fellow has done considering what is actually in the engine.

    I will never be able to actually (afford to) own a real one, but will be able to find out what it was like to ride one. And BTW, I’ll be wearing suitable riding gear and not just my underwear!


    182 MPH Bonneville Run - 1948 HRD "Vincent 666" Alp Racing Engines - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Late to the party but I've always done these by ballizing. Basically you press precision steel balls through the bronze
    bushing to size it. It can be done with the rods in the motor actually.

    There's lots of vendors that will sell you steel balls sized in close increments. As you get close to the correct fit you
    just press the same ball through the bushing a few times more.

    One of the purported advantages of this approach is that it tends to lock the OD of the bushing hard into the
    features in the connecting rod end, and then it's less likely to spin later on.

    Oh, I kept the site:

    Bal-tec - Alphabetical Index
    what could be the cost of a set of 7/8" balls? how many would you need? (seems to be no price list on their site.)

    edit: also, timesaver seems to be sand:

    https://ws2coating.com/wp-content/up...GLISH-0815.pdf
    http://algoma.msdsworld.com/msds/English/30654.pdf

    (cant believe it.)
    Last edited by dian; 07-25-2021 at 04:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laverda View Post
    Back in the days before I had a Sunnen hone, I would use a brass lapping tool with Timesaver compound. Did many rods this way with good results. Bushings were made out of 932 bronze. Lapping tools are cheap, less than $20 for the size you will need.
    While I have done some lapping, Iím certainly not an expert on the subject. It does seem to me that lapping is sometimes considered inferior in some way. Life would be simple if I had a Sunnen setup. Even considered adapting a couple of Sunnen mandrels to use on the small lathe. Itís a barrel lap with what appears to be an expanding brass sleeve. It should be ok if itís set up on the mill and the expanded brass part of the lap passes completely through the bushing on each pass.

    If surface plates are lapped, then it must be possible to achieve accuracy if done correctly.

    The 7/8 lap I ordered has arrived, so Iíll do a test run when I get back to the shop. I have some knackered rods I can practice on. If it doesnít work out, Iíll do the walk of shame over to see the guy with the hone.

    7ada74ec-add5-4592-8cc0-9c4077f0720c.jpg

    6e26fc49-095a-478e-93fb-b34feee18a33.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    what could be the cost of a set of 7/8" balls? how many would you need? (seems to be no price list on their site.)

    edit: also, timesaver seems to be sand:

    https://ws2coating.com/wp-content/up...GLISH-0815.pdf
    http://algoma.msdsworld.com/msds/English/30654.pdf

    (cant believe it.)
    The balls are relatively inexpensive. I found a price list somewhere on there, but it wasn’t easy to find. Maybe they removed it.

    As for the timesaver, I’ve used it in other applications and haven’t found any tendency to imbed itself.

    That SDS was for the Green. Used for hard materials. The yellow for soft metals probably uses softer sand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    While I have done some lapping, I’m certainly not an expert on the subject. It does seem to me that lapping is sometimes considered inferior in some way. Life would be simple if I had a Sunnen setup. Even considered adapting a couple of Sunnen mandrels to use on the small lathe. It’s a barrel lap with what appears to be an expanding brass sleeve. It should be ok if it’s set up on the mill and the expanded brass part of the lap passes completely through the bushing on each pass.

    If surface plates are lapped, then it must be possible to achieve accuracy if done correctly.

    The 7/8 lap I ordered has arrived, so I’ll do a test run when I get back to the shop. I have some knackered rods I can practice on. If it doesn’t work out, I’ll do the walk of shame over to see the guy with the hone.

    7ada74ec-add5-4592-8cc0-9c4077f0720c.jpg

    6e26fc49-095a-478e-93fb-b34feee18a33.jpg

    I've used those expanding barrel laps on smaller bores (1/4" or so) and they don't do a bad job but the hole tends to bellmouth on the entry side.

    I've used these helical laps (external only) and they keep things very round and straight:

    Internal Laps, External Laps, Abrasives | Helical Lap and Mfg.

    They even compare to barrel laps: Tool Fundamentals - Helical Lap & Manufacturing Co.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    I've used those expanding barrel laps on smaller bores (1/4" or so) and they don't do a bad job but the hole tends to bellmouth on the entry side.

    I've used these helical laps (external only) and they keep things very round and straight:

    Internal Laps, External Laps, Abrasives | Helical Lap and Mfg.

    They even compare to barrel laps: Tool Fundamentals - Helical Lap & Manufacturing Co.
    I more or less anticipated the tendency to leave a bell mouth, so figured I would take a small amount at a time, and as mentioned, make sure the barrel passes completely through the bushing and flip the rod over every few passes.
    American lap sells similar laps to the ones in your link. If I remember correctly, it’s about $250 USD for each size ( in the range I was looking for) by the time you buy all the bits. If I was going to do more than a few, I would consider going that route. When I priced them, it was with the idea of using them to lap the big end roller bearings outer race after it’s pressed into the rod. I’m currently looking for an internal lap that the Harley folk use, and then I will modify it to fit. I could make one, but it already seems like I spend more time making tools and jigs than assembling the bikes.

    I certainly agree that those other laps would be far superior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    A copy of a Lightning. As close as possible to how it rolled out of the factory, so fast by 1950 standards, but not so fast by today’s standards.
    If you want to be historical, that's cool, but they did a lot of things bass-ackwards on the Lightning. You can do much better without too much trouble.

    And you're going to have to sell the pickup to finance a KVF-TT mag these days Plus they don't really work worth a shit, just better than the stock one.

    You should go alky at least, the tank is big enough for a day's run and it's much more fun than gasoline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    If you want to be historical, that's cool, but they did a lot of things bass-ackwards on the Lightning. You can do much better without too much trouble.

    And you're going to have to sell the pickup to finance a KVF-TT mag these days Plus they don't really work worth a shit, just better than the stock one.

    You should go alky at least, the tank is big enough for a day's run and it's much more fun than gasoline.
    I won’t be selling the pickup to finance the mag. I already sold it to pay for the correct TT’s and manifolds. I know where I can get a KVFTT, but don’t see the point in spending that much on this bike because at the end of the day, it’s just a pile of parts. The mag is the earlier magnesium version, so wouldn’t want to risk it anyway. They did lots of strange things with those bikes and there is a lot of “folklore” about how fast they were. I rode a Rapide for a few years as my only source of transportation. It was actually well behaved and reasonably reliable. Always used a little more oil than my liking. Eventually found the oil feed holes in the cylinders were pretty much even with the second ring. I’ve probably measured about a dozen liners since then and every single oil hole was too high. I bought a K2FC mag housing and reworked it so it would be difficult to tell the difference. The most time consuming part was making the points cover that threads onto the end cover. Actually made a series of stamping dies to make the breather for the cover. Mag is not quite finished yet. I bought a fancy CNC machined end housing off EBay. Looks great except for the fact that the bearing bore, locating shoulder, and cam ring bore are not concentric with each other. Finding an original one isn’t easy. They did use a K2FC with slack wire advance on some obscure Royal Endfield, so same as KVFTT end housing, but haven’t found any for sale.

    Maybe add a tablespoon or two of R40 to the alcohol? Sounds daffy, but love the smell of that stuff. I have a copy of the letter that came with that Lighting in the photo. The factory put a 100 test miles on it using a “blend of petrol and alcohol” which I thought was interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    I won’t be selling the pickup to finance the mag.
    Better off to go with the series D battery-points ignition. Then use electronics to get a real spark. Just putting a modern ignition on those makes more difference than any other thing you can do.

    2" pipes are ridiculous, too ... they like nitro because they can't get enough air. You can't get much over 3/8" valve lift without major modifications to the heads. That's not enough.

    They did lots of strange things with those bikes and there is a lot of “folklore” about how fast they were.
    Yes. They aren't that fast. Comfy for cruising but a mildly stepped on '64 Sportster will whip a Shadow's ass. Mine did maybe 130 at Ontario with all the Lightning crap, and that's pffft for a thousand cc's. It would be fun to build a Vinnie race bike again, knowing a little more now.

    Maybe add a tablespoon or two of R40 to the alcohol?
    See if you can find M. Speedway bikes used to run it, it's meant for use with alcohol.

    I was pretty sure those ran GP's, btw ... at least the later ones. Or maybe people switched as soon as they got them. TT's don't go to 1 1/2" ? A Dellorto pumper will work much better but people can tell that's not stock

    What you really want to work on is the clutch and shift mechanism. Changing gears is not something a Vincent likes to do. Unfortunately, some lazy sodbuster put all those corners in the roads

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Better off to go with the series D battery-points ignition. Then use electronics to get a real spark. Just putting a modern ignition on those makes more difference than any other thing you can do.

    2" pipes are ridiculous, too ... they like nitro because they can't get enough air. You can't get much over 3/8" valve lift without major modifications to the heads. That's not enough.


    Yes. They aren't that fast. Comfy for cruising but a mildly stepped on '64 Sportster will whip a Shadow's ass. Mine did maybe 130 at Ontario with all the Lightning crap, and that's pffft for a thousand cc's. It would be fun to build a Vinnie race bike again, knowing a little more now.


    See if you can find M. Speedway bikes used to run it, it's meant for use with alcohol.

    I was pretty sure those ran GP's, btw ... at least the later ones. Or maybe people switched as soon as they got them. TT's don't go to 1 1/2" ? A Dellorto pumper will work much better but people can tell that's not stock

    What you really want to work on is the clutch and shift mechanism. Changing gears is not something a Vincent likes to do. Unfortunately, some lazy sodbuster put all those corners in the roads
    You are trying to move an immovable object.. I have a Comet engine stuffed into a Honda GL500I frame, so that might give you an idea of what you’re up against. There weren’t any rules with that one except use whatever was in the shed or the dumpster at the local motorcycle breaker. I used an old Norton distributor on that one with programable multi spark ignition. You can enter 4 maps and switch from one to the other by swapping grounds on the sensors (IIRC). Now twin plug head, so easy to bump the timing back etc. I have an old Dolphin coil ignition I could use, but not going to happen. The mag will be rewound, new “proper” capacitor and will be remagnitized and torture tested. He has done a couple of others for me including a BTH TT and they work quite well. No coils, no battery and no Miller dynamo!
    The carbs that I have are the same as the ones on the Lightning in the photo. It was one of the last (or maybe the last) one out of Stevenage and has about 200 miles on it total and is probably the most original one on the planet. 32mm TT which were Lightning only. They are different from standard TT. Different fittings, so will flow enough alcohol. Plus the air mixture slides on the side are angled forward unlike the normal one. I was a miracle that I was actually able to find them. It will have the 2” side by side pipes which are not only too large, but too long. I have the Lightning MK2 cams and the guides are trimmed to accommodate the lift such as it is. I do have another set of 1 5/8 pipes, but the 2” are original.
    The only time I ever filled my pants on the Rapide was when it popped out of 3rd gear on a sweeping right hander (on the street) Instant under steer in a really bad way. The shift plate will get some work and everything will be sorted as much as possible before it gets installed. Made a jig for setting it up. Might be overkill, but I’m using new old stock die cast cases, so want to make sure all is right in that department.

    4e9fbb38-550a-4450-acfa-7d5be5ae25d9.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    You are trying to move an immovable object.. I have a Comet engine stuffed into a Honda GL500I frame, so that might give you an idea of what you¬’re up against.
    Been theree, done that I stuck my shadow engine into an XR-750 frame. 18" wheels, discs on both ends, Krober tach (you can make a carbon brush for the mag end cover that will trigger an electronic tach), Mikuni's (would do Dellorto's instead now), steel idler, teflonned and coated pistons, ferodo single plate clutch mod, 320 lbs. WM3 and WM4 with Dunlop KR-83 and KR-84's. The sum total electric was the dry cell under the seat for the brake light, had to get home before dark. Bump start. Pretty much everything in the Lightning book and it still wasn't super fast. It was really small though. Pretty, too.

    Jim Evans rode it once, thought it was cool (but didn't shift, which I already noticed Turned out to be more of a sunday morning ride machine than a real racer. So I graduated to the real thing ... shoulda kept it, hunh ?

    I would do it differently now .... have to admit the stupid red-headed vincent song pisses me off tho. He "tossed her the keys" ... no '52 Vincent ever had keys and you wouldn't make it three blocks on the street on a lightning without being pulled over. Ignorant, worthless piece of shit song.

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