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Small Industrial Forging Business Viability

opendieforging

Plastic
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Hi Everyone!

I own and operate an ornamental ironwork shop with with a fairly extensive collection of air hammers. We've been considering the idea of diversifying and seeking out some small industrial forging jobs to mix in with our architectural work. The main hammers that would be suited for these jobs would be our 100kg and 150kg self-contained Beche hammers.

Our capabilities would be small runs of jobs with starting material under about 4" diameter. We'd want to stick to simple, open-die operations to start with like re-sizing material, rough forged-shafts, etc. I would think that there would be a reasonable demand for this type of work based on the material savings alone.

I have a friend who does this in Sweden and tells me there is huge demand there. I'm hoping there would be a similar need here.

Looking for some feedback as to whether or not there would be a demand for this type of work. Has anyone ever worked with small-scale industrial smiths? Do you think these services would be useful to your business?

Thanks!

Robert
 
I used to work with small foundries and forges- but "small" like 50 guys running round the clock. I don't know what small is to you.

That was construction tools- asphalt cutters, tampers.

Most of my customers today have castings or forgings as part of their mix. There's a large demand for that type of work.
 
I do similar work as it sounds like you do. I have nazel 2b and 3b hammers. I would expect most machinist would rather turn the bar to chips today than wait for it to back from forge shop. Also how would you insure to them the material was worked at the right temperature to avoid cracking or piping? Ornamental stuff does not really matter but if they need certs on materials?
I am not criticizing your plan I think it could work, just not sure how yet. What exactly does your Sweden guy do?
 
Also how would you insure to them the material was worked at the right temperature to avoid cracking or piping?

Eggzachary !

Can you X-ray your parts ?
Ultrasound inspect ?

To licensed standards ?

Forgings are forgings for a reason, strength & reliability.

Small forgings might be an ammonia valve body, with fatal results
if you screw up.

Shafts ?

Leave it a little too long in the furnace, and overheat it, or hammer it
too long and it cools off too much.

That shaft twist's off, and who get's sued ?

The metallurgist get called in, and they will find the problems.
 
I've done a little of that work as well. I made tongs for a local forging plant and the shop in in used to make a copy of construction oriented stuff: sharpening jackhammer points, prybars, wedges, street keys and special wrenches for the water company.

I have a friend locally who had been very successful with it, but I feel it requires a significantly different mindset and skill-set than ornamental work, so I have not pursued it.
 
Your projected kind of work can be done in China or India for cents instead of dollars.....anything doesnt need certs is third world production......stick to the art ironwork.
 
There is a market in the USA- but its small, and requires some serious skills.
Dunno if you ever met Grant Sarver, but he made a living as an industrial blacksmith for decades.
He used to own a pretty big shop in Tacoma, he was the second or third largest maker of chipping hammer and similar bits for concrete, mines, and roadwork in the USA- He said he made well over a million of em. When he sold that shop, he went solo- just him and his diminutive wife. The two of them made (and sold- Grant always sold, he was not a hobby type) over 30,000 pairs of blacksmith tongs, along with bringing hammer tooling into the 21st century, using CAD, CNC mills, and CNC EDM , with a 100 ton mechanical fly press, to mass produce texture tooling for power hammers.
But Grant also did a fair amount of industrial stuff.
Once, he got the gig to make new mooring pins for the bottom of Pearl Harbor- Something like 20' long pieces of 3" round, hot bent, which were then located at the bottom of the bay to tie up naval ships to.
He also had a regular gig bending gear shift handles for an aftermarket transmission mod company- he would do a thousand at a time- he bent those black, maybe 500 degrees, so the plating would look good without more polishing.

He was one of the smartest blacksmiths I ever met, which helped.
But he filled a niche for small to medium scale forging, which could not be ordered online from China.

Higher up the food chain, of course, is someplace like Scot Forge- but there are still industrial blacksmiths around who arent using manipulators and 5000 ton presses.
Before I bought a power hammer, way back in the 80s, I had a job making a long fence for a Hollywood star, and I didnt want to hand forge points on 500 pieces of 3/4" round, so I jobbed it out to an industrial shop in South Central LA. They did not make rocket parts, and didnt xray or analyze alloys- they just used big hammers to forge parts for industry and contractors. Brackets, joist hangers, turnbuckle brackets, and, yes spear points.
Lots of times, forging is faster and cheaper to get a near net part. Forging a flat on the end of a round bar, to put a bolt thru, is 30 seconds with a hammer- but its still magic to your average contractor, and to many weld shops.

I would say its definitely possible.
 
I used to work with small foundries and forges- but "small" like 50 guys running round the clock. I don't know what small is to you.

Small would be 6-8 guys doing super small runs- too small for the big guys and also too small to warrant importing them.
 
Eggzachary !

Can you X-ray your parts ?
Ultrasound inspect ?

To licensed standards ?

Forgings are forgings for a reason, strength & reliability.

Small forgings might be an ammonia valve body, with fatal results
if you screw up.

Shafts ?

Leave it a little too long in the furnace, and overheat it, or hammer it
too long and it cools off too much.

That shaft twist's off, and who get's sued ?

The metallurgist get called in, and they will find the problems.

These are very good points and things I've certainly considered. The short answer is that, just as with any other business, I would assume all responsibility and liability for my work. If it needed a cert, it would get a cert. If it needed to be x-rayed, it would get x-rayed. If I didn't have full confidence that I could do the job properly, I would either find someone who could, or not take on the job in the first place.

I understand the consequences of not taking these projects seriously.

My question right now is one of commercial viability, not practical feasibility. If it's determined that there is a market for the work, then it warrants more time and research.

Thanks
 
There is a market in the USA- but its small, and requires some serious skills.
Dunno if you ever met Grant Sarver, but he made a living as an industrial blacksmith for decades.
He used to own a pretty big shop in Tacoma, he was the second or third largest maker of chipping hammer and similar bits for concrete, mines, and roadwork in the USA- He said he made well over a million of em. When he sold that shop, he went solo- just him and his diminutive wife. The two of them made (and sold- Grant always sold, he was not a hobby type) over 30,000 pairs of blacksmith tongs, along with bringing hammer tooling into the 21st century, using CAD, CNC mills, and CNC EDM , with a 100 ton mechanical fly press, to mass produce texture tooling for power hammers.
But Grant also did a fair amount of industrial stuff.
Once, he got the gig to make new mooring pins for the bottom of Pearl Harbor- Something like 20' long pieces of 3" round, hot bent, which were then located at the bottom of the bay to tie up naval ships to.
He also had a regular gig bending gear shift handles for an aftermarket transmission mod company- he would do a thousand at a time- he bent those black, maybe 500 degrees, so the plating would look good without more polishing.

He was one of the smartest blacksmiths I ever met, which helped.
But he filled a niche for small to medium scale forging, which could not be ordered online from China.

Higher up the food chain, of course, is someplace like Scot Forge- but there are still industrial blacksmiths around who arent using manipulators and 5000 ton presses.
Before I bought a power hammer, way back in the 80s, I had a job making a long fence for a Hollywood star, and I didnt want to hand forge points on 500 pieces of 3/4" round, so I jobbed it out to an industrial shop in South Central LA. They did not make rocket parts, and didnt xray or analyze alloys- they just used big hammers to forge parts for industry and contractors. Brackets, joist hangers, turnbuckle brackets, and, yes spear points.
Lots of times, forging is faster and cheaper to get a near net part. Forging a flat on the end of a round bar, to put a bolt thru, is 30 seconds with a hammer- but its still magic to your average contractor, and to many weld shops.

I would say it's definitely possible.

I do know who Grant is and own quite a few pairs of his tongs. They are great! - The type of work he did is about the speed I'd be looking for. Or even the type of work done by the shop in LA. Basically, we've got a couple big hammers and I'd like to utilize them for more than we are.

Very good point about the contractors and weld shops as well. The blacksmith tooling market is fairly saturated right now but there could be an opportunity to work for other trades.

Thanks!
 
The Beche is a sexy ass hammer. Yes, there is a demand, getting into is hard. I was forging lifting lug like things on a (sihendler 50) for a massive rigging company for a while. With open dies I think the medical industry is blind to the forging concept. strength is the selling of forgings now, many places don't care about material - and cutting out machines are everywhere. The medical industry is all small low volume - implants (hips) to surgical tools. bonus is industrial has zero finish work. Heat treating, machining, painting all by others. No install, no job site, just a pallet of parts- quoting fob is gravy.
 








 
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