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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Have you done this? you may be right, its been a long time, but I remember as kid doing some 12 gauge shot gun/plywood experiments and remember being fairly underwhelmed. wasn't at all like the movies (there is no friggin way the recipient would be flying back like he came out of a canon as shown in the movies ) Any one done birdshot into 3/4 ply at 12 feet?
    I have shot #7, #6 ? birdshot through 3/4 inch plywood at 12 feet and made a hole big enough to put my fist through. The sawed off 12 gauge is loaded with 00 buckshot. I'm too cheap to waste one of those on plywood.

    I have a friend out in the country who is a hunter of everything. a bunch of us periodically go shoot our shot guns at clay pigeons, .45, .380, .32, & .22 pistols, .41 mag, .357 mag, .38, & .22 revolvers, and whatever rifle needs sighted in at targets.

    His Lab gets shut up in the house and gets all out of shape because she hears shooting and wants to go get the bird.

    Out of curiosity I went looking for photos of shotgun wounds:

    http://www.relentlessdefense.com/wp-...10/photo12.jpg

    http://img.medscape.com/pi/emed/ckb/...-1975530tn.jpg

    http://www.pathguy.com/sol/07091.jpg

    Paul

  2. #182
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    Those indeed are some raucous photos.
    No different than squirrel hunting, a man will die just as easy if not being even more delicate because we are moral creation and do not exist in the wild or on the wild of nature.

    We have a God given conscience about taking another human life because each of us was wonderfully made in the very image of God Himself, spiritually speaking of coarse.

    We each not only have unique different fingerprints, but different faces as well to identify us, as a perfecting sculpture in His artist studio could only do, think of all the billions that have ever walked this earth from beginning to end, all having different finger prints and all having different faces, even in identical twins there are some slight dis-similarities.

    Only God Himself could create such a creation as us.

    I don't think going machete postal on something like that, over a bunch of trinkets is a corresponding answer, that is why a lot of people who believed they are innocent are sitting in prison this very minute wanting to leave but never will.

    This planet is going crazy because of lack of basic education and family love and values.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hofer View Post
    I once left four Cubs tickets on the dash of an inadvertently unlocked car. I came back not 90 seconds later and there were seven of them!
    In St. Louis, a completely reasonable response.

    Bill

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  5. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul39 View Post
    I have shot #7, #6 ? birdshot through 3/4 inch plywood at 12 feet and made a hole big enough to put my fist through. The sawed off 12 gauge is loaded with 00 buckshot.
    Results this guy got seem more inline with what i remember. #8, alll pellets stopped in 3/4 ply, mind you that's 5 yards whereas you're saying 4. still, a fist size hole? maybe he wasn't holding the gun right

    plywood test [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Results this guy got seem more inline with what i remember. #8, alll pellets stopped in 3/4 ply, mind you that's 5 yards whereas you're saying 4. still, a fist size hole? maybe he wasn't holding the gun right

    plywood test [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums
    From Site:

    I did some test's Saturday with # 8 and 00 buck on 3/4" plywood. Tests done with Rem 870 w/20" barrel. Winchester Super Speed #8 birdshot and Remington Express 00 buck.

    I had 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood set up back to back.

    Result with #8 shot:
    At 5 yards all pellets stopped in first sheet. Same at ten yards.
    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Could be that the 1 1/2 inches of plywood behind the 3/4 inch first layer kept it from splintering out.

    I might take my Shootsgun and a piece of plywood out to dinner at my friend's house in the country Wednesday.

    Paul

  7. #186
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    To quote Jeff Cooper "The purpose of a fighting gun is to make someone cease and desist from whatever he is doing at the time". Remember that if all the pellets stop in the target, all the energy is dissipated in it. That is going to hurt like hell and unless he is stoked up on something it is certainly going to slow him down. My shotgun, an FN Browning superposed, about 6' away as I write, is loaded with triple Bs. I picked them as a compromise between deterrent value and velocity loss by the time they reach a neighbor's house.

    This discussion illustrates a major point that is rarely addressed directly- a firearm is a lousy home defense tool. While I might be able to think up scenarios where I might put both barrels in someone without remorse, for every one I can think of hundreds where inflicting that level of injury is inappropriate down to just plain evil. As I said earlier, there is a level of crime where I would let the perp get away rather than injure him that severely. If I had a phaser I could set on stun, I would lock up my guns. Even that would not be ideal because rendering someone suddenly unconscious can cause severe injury when he hits the floor. The ideal would be a neural disruptor that disables all aggressive impulses and makes the target completely docile while still having a sense of balance and motor control. Then you could tell him to sit down and wait patiently for the police. In a discussion with a long time police officer who had about seen it all, the issue of police dispensing justice themselves came up. His answer was that the officer's job was not to hold court in the street. It was to bring the man in for the courts to deal with. Admittedly that can be frustrating, but that is his job description. Similarly, a home protection weapon is not for dispensing vigilante justice but to prevent injury to people or property.

    Bill

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  9. #187
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    Part of the issue with going through a piece of wood is how is the target secured. If it is rigid with no way to flex or swing that is very different then if it is just leaning against a tree or hanging from a rope. Bending a sheet of plywood back six inches, instantaniously, probably takes more force then putting a nail through it. Or moving the entire sheet one foot against a 200MPH wind in a fraction of a second.
    So there is no wind, but the bullet is traveling at some velocity and transfers that velocity to the target which then makes it's own wind.
    Anyone remember then ad where a boxer could not punch his way out of a paper sack? simple physics.
    Bill D.

  10. #188
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    I personally don't have some of the hang ups posted here. If some one has decided to break into some one elses property while there home then its pretty damn impossible to tell weather there here to take that £5 note of the table or mutilate your kids. Overe here the law even differentiates between a burglary at a occupied or unoccupied property. Its very much a decision they have made not you. You can only chose how you respond.

    It goes back to basic cave man instincts in my mind. If a lonely traveller wanders up and needs to dry by your fire then sure. If the same chap one night trys to enter my cave, different story.

    My house is locked at night. Some one caught trying to defeat that lock unless clearly identified as a police officer waving a warrent is going to be met by extreme levels of aggression by the time they make it inside. There is no option in the uk about using any kinda projectile firing weapon that's going to make any difference (personally i wish there was!! but do understand and can not overly disagree with why this is). Its going to be close up whack them with what you have to hand kinda approach. In my mind it has nothing to do with defending my stuff but my own and my family's safety.

    Some one breaking into external property will be met with what ever projectiles i have to hand for the catapult. Not fatal by any means, hell will just about benetrate both sides of a coke can at 4 yards but your not going to be taking many hits before you bugger off either unless your really high on something. Were i live theres no police presence for a good few miles most nights. Response times often over the 15 minute mark. Hence i have gotta be able to ensure my family's safety for that length of time minimum.

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  12. #189
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    In calif you can shoot at a criminal if he is armed with a weapon
    and almost anything can be classed as a weapon.

    Crowbar. screwdriver. are common tools that thieves use they are also weapons..

    There was one case where a criminal had broke into a house an found a replica gun.
    he and his friend broke into another home down the street and found the homeowner was home.

    The thief pulled the replica gun and got his self blown away.
    His friend also got fitted for a body bag even though he had no weapon.

    The homeowner was never charged.

    Me i have a can of bear repellant a 100,000 volt cattle prod and a 1911.

    Depending on age and how i feel 2 of the 3 will be used.
    And if i don't shoot them they will still spend time in a hospital after the beating i give them.

    I learned in the navy never fight fair.

    One time i was running a gasoline fired steam cleaner.
    For cheap fuel i was buying white gas. (pure gasoline, without additives sometimes called Coleman fuel)

    I had a 5 gallon gas can full taken from the back of my truck.

    The next day the neighbor kids dune buggy sounded like the engine was coming apart it was knocking so bad.

  13. #190
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    Really want to pissem off,get an old fuel can no holes in it fill with some water,leave enough room for gas as it floats atop water,an let it set out the thief,finds 5 gallons of would be gas dumpes it in,don't have to go far to see who stole your gas. worked for me,as I laughed my ass off at them!! works every time

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  15. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    This discussion illustrates a major point that is rarely addressed directly- a firearm is a lousy home defense tool. While I might be able to think up scenarios where I might put both barrels in someone without remorse, for every one I can think of hundreds where inflicting that level of injury is inappropriate down to just plain evil.
    When I was 20 the slightest noise would wake me, my eyesight and aim were both excellent even in low light, and being a single guy I had little reason to worry. A decade later, a freight train could pass through the living room without waking me and both my eyes and aim are slowly starting to go downhill. Beyond that, I once saw a guy rip the electrodes out after being shot by a police taser and drunks bashed over the head with bottles with little effect in either case, in Iraq I saw several keep working and wearing 100+ lbs of gear for an hour or more with gunshot wounds....sounds crazy but its reality.

    When Im not home and she awakes in the middle of the night disoriented, not able to see well, with relatively little shooting experience (didnt grow up w/it), and little time to react, I want her shooting the biggest weapon she can comfortably handle, that has the most ammo and the widest coverage, so far its been a 20 gauge pump. If we find something better, we'll get it as cheap (but still not defeatable) security. Sorry, but I have no qualms about ending the life of a criminal entering our locked home after hours nor about providing her the tools to do so. Extreme situations are rare but a reality, in the situation where an intruder goes into fight or flight mode theres no guarantee its flight, and I want to do everything I can to ensure that family remains safe.

  16. #192
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    Remember that at the beginning of this debate I cited a case where someone broke into a house and was threatening a mother and her children. I fully supported her putting 5 .38 slugs in him. At the other end of the spectrum are things like the problems we had with people stealing flowers from my mother's elaborate gardens, the person who stole the fire extinguisher from a race car parked in my car port, or the neighborhood kid who stole the stiletto from the gun rack in my room when a bunch of them were visiting. Anyone can fill in the levels of crime in between. At some point deadly force is justified, but it is pretty far up the scale. Billy clubs, pepper spray and cattle prods might be useful, but hardly fill in the gap between them and firearms. I strongly support self defense, both for personal reasons and for society as a whole. As citizens, part of our duty is to help curb crime, either by calling police or taking direct action. The "I'm not getting involved" attitude amounts to giving the streets to the animals. I had to make that decision once when I saw a mugging in progress 200' from my shop. I got my 1911 and chased the muggers away. The police got them later. The various aspects went through my mind as I ran down- might they fire bomb my shop for revenge? Would I get hurt? I just dismissed them and kept going. The perps ran away and I didn't have to shoot anyone. As the Godfather might say, that would not be justice, their victim was not dead.

    Discussing this with the policeman who came by a little later, he said that they are like rats- give them an out and they will run. Give the police the best description you can and chances are they will already be on record. One of them was.

    Adama, you would be surprised how many policemen have "hang ups" such as I expressed. Most of them I have talked with really don't want to shoot anyone, but will if required.

    Bill

  17. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    a major point that is rarely addressed directly- a firearm is a lousy home defense tool.
    Yup, IEDs are better.

    Seriously, I agree with you 9100. Better to rig your house with several battery-powered internal and external sirens, strong strobes, and a big PA system, with several emergency switches to actuate the system. 120dB of siren, with a zillion watts of strobe, and a recording through a strong PA system "EMERGENCY! POLICE HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED AND ARE RESPONDING. YOU ARE UNDER PHOTOSURVEILLANCE! ARMED RESPONSE IS ON SITE! DROP ANY WEAPON YOU HAVE AND LEAVE NOW."

    It would take an iron physical courage for any unauthorized person to remain on your premises, with sirens blaring and this recording blasting inside and out of your house.

    That said, I live in a outlying 'burb (its a suburb of Philly, but is still in horse country, and neighbors have pastures and even huge estates, and there are fox hunts and such). Our police response is state troopers. Given the delay between notification, and the response 15 minutes to a half hour later, a Glock 21 (chambered in .45 ACP, loaded with 230 gr. hollow points), or a 12 guage 3 inch loaded with double aught are good second best. Provided, of course that one doesn't buy the weapon, throW it in the closet, loaded, and never practice. My rule for home defense would be "If you aren't willing to put in a couple hours a month at the range, and a couple days a year at a safe shooting or other firearms course bearing directly on the weapon you choose, and you aren't willing to lock the weapons up in a safe at all times, you probably shouldn't have a firearm in your home, on your person, or at the workplace."

    We just had an detective, in nearby Camden, shoot himself in the leg (he was in a bathroom stall) with his service weapon. And that's a guy who presumably has lots of training! We have a right in this country to bear arms. Too many don't recognize that this implies a responsibility to bear them safely and effectively. Which means practice, training, scrupulous adherence to safety procedures, maintainence, safe storage, and a lot of other requirements.

  18. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furpo View Post
    We’re much friendlier up north!
    I caught heck from the other half last Wednesday night for standing on the front porch buck naked as I emptied out my 45 Cal.
    Dang 4 legged critter can reach the bird feeder hung 10’ 3” from the ground!
    Yes I have bear sh_t in my yard!
    45 always come first before cloths!
    Must be a small bear... a 45 Cal most likely would just piss off a brown or grizzly... and at that point you might as well just shoot yourself, as it might save you some pain!

  19. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosleyjr View Post
    "If you aren't willing to put in a couple hours a month at the range, and a couple days a year at a safe shooting or other firearms course bearing directly on the weapon you choose, and you aren't willing to lock the weapons up in a safe at all times, you probably shouldn't have a firearm in your home, on your person, or at the workplace."
    That's sort of pontifical isn't it Boselyjr? And it's not any sort of remedy against the threat of deadly intrusion. What, you're hoping for a polite bad guy who will kindly announce in your dark bedroom, "sir, I am here to incapacitate you, to watch while I rape then kill your wife, and then kill you." who will then comply when you threaten, "hold it right there or I will proceed to my safe, mess with the locking system and search in the dark for the appropriate weapon with which to attempt to dissuade you"?

    And this, "and a couple days a year at a safe shooting or other firearms course bearing directly on the weapon you choose". I don't think that I'm superior to any other that is "willing to put in a couple hours a month at the range" nor appreciably less intellegent than the guy teaching others what is safe or not about a gun that I have a thorough understanding of on a monthly basis.

    Like the vast majority of firearms owners since they were invented, I've never had what you are calling a "firearms course" and at nearly 75, in all likelyhood, I never will. That doesn't mean that I'm stupid or irresponsible with a firearm, or that because I've been a firearm owner for 63 years, any decent person was ever less safe. Indeed, because I've been a firearm owner, a few have been safer, though I'm not going to titillate with the tales.

    On my twelfth birthday, my dad like his dad before, gave me my first gun, a .22 cal rifle. He sat me down and went through a safety course that started with, "never point a gun, loaded or not, at anything that you don't want to shoot". That and the rest of his training I've retained for 63 years. Amazing isn't it? Of course not! Suggesting that someone forgets the importance of how a gun is properly handled at every 6 month interval is what's amazing!

    There is worse logic though, that of depending on the police to protect you. The job of the police is primarly janitorial. They do their work after the crime has been commited, none stand guard over you while you and yours sleep.

    I don't give a fig if the "criminal is apprehended", that's janitorial clean up. As for me and my house, I'll do my very best to save the police the bother of cleaning up. Don't want to bother the courts or prison officials either. I only want my family left unharmed! Anyone bent on harming them, is in deadly peril and I've not the least shame in that position.

    This world would be a better place if there were less assaults but politicians the world over seem bent on eliminating the primary shield against assault, the justifiable fear that the bad guys used to have of the vast majority, the strength of honorable people to do what only they can do with any hope of timelyness, defend themselves. Sadly, the politicians have contaminated the minds of many of the honorable as well, by taking a page from the deadly dictators manual, entitled, "DISARM THE PEASANTS".

    And to the twit who would respond, "you are more likely to be shot with your own gun....." go ahead, publically post your ignorance and/or misguidence but it would be silly to try in vain to find proof of that well known fabrication. It can be found in the deadly dictator manual as a preface to, "DISARM THE PEASANTS" but that hardly qualifies as "proof".

    Bob

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  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    TOWERS 212, BABY! Quad, right on the corner. Some of the best years of my life.
    I ended up over in polk on the other side of campus. It was like two different worlds. lol

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    Mr. Campbell said it well.

    I live in the sticks. 45 minute estimated response time to an EMERGENCY 911 call.

    One shoots to stop the threat. This is just common sense. If the threat dies in the process, well, that's just their bad for being a threat on my property. That said- I'm certainly not looking to shoot anyone. But THAT said? I have no "reverence" for the life of a human who is threatening me or mine in a serious fashion. Human life is fungible..... there's plenty, and we'll make more.

    I have gravitated to a compact AR15 as a long gun and several Glocks as handguns for my security needs. It's easy to mount a light to an AR and it seems when I do end up killing something, it's usually at night. The precision of a rifle over a shotgun is a factor. As is the stunning muzzle blast of a shotgun indoors (or so I have read).

    As an aside, for you non-hunters.... you really can't imagine what a high-powered rifle does to flesh and bone. It's not like the movies.

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    " As is the stunning muzzle blast of a shotgun indoors "


    I got a 6 inch 44 magnum,,,damn what a sight to see at night.Never seen a shotgun in the dark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmach View Post
    I got a 6 inch 44 magnum
    Do you feel lucky punk?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmach View Post
    " As is the stunning muzzle blast of a shotgun indoors "


    I got a 6 inch 44 magnum,,,damn what a sight to see at night.Never seen a shotgun in the dark.
    I had a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 that made a ridiculous fireball at the muzzle with, IIRC, H335 powder. It was the size of a basketball. Velocity and accuracy were great but I eliminated that powder simply because that giant fireball was intimidating and affected my accuracy!

    A short-barrel .223 like my M4 pattern Bushy makes a painful crack without earplugs. I've fired it a few times that way. I have read- only read- that a shotgun indoors borders on the incapacitating for the shooter.

    My favorite "bump in the night" gun was a SA M1a Bush Rifle. I fabricated a light mount. A short semi-auto .308 with a 20 round mag is a very powerful weapon. If I had bear problems I'd still have it. Once milsurp ammo got expensive it was too painful to feed the thing recreationally... and at some point I decided I'd rather have $1200 than the rifle. But it was a sick pup.


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