ER40 Chuck with B&S 9 tail?

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 12, 2014

Is anyone aware of an ER40 Chuck with B&S 9 tail anywhere? I doubt that it exists, but thought that if it was anywhere to be found, that the mass of eyes here would know. Short of that, it seems that ER40 fixture plates are suddenly nowhere to be found either. Long story short, I want to put some collets on a spindle of a machine and it's either 5C or ER40. If I go 5C I have to buy a collet chuck, make a set-tru style back plate, mount and dial in as normal. For the money, I can use an ER40 fixture plate, have the same practical working range up front ( for my purposes ) and save myself both time AND money. I'd end up turning the plate down nearly 35% - 40%, but it's not prohibitive at all. Short of that, I could also just slam an adapter in there if I could find one with a BS9, but chances of that are less than a the proverbial snowball's... you get the drift. Yes, I could purchase one of the ER40/MT4 adapters and grind the taper, but that's actually more futzing around than it sounds, and I'm getting picky where I spend my time these days. So what's out there?

macgyver · Dec 12, 2014

I have not seen a ER40 one myself, but I haven't looked in a long time either. My Index came with an adapter to use TG collets, can't remember which ones now, I don't use it much. I have never seen another or for sale either.

TGTool · Dec 12, 2014

Is that a threaded spindle that you've got the BS9 on? I've made a variety of ER-40 adapters for various spindles up into 2"+ IIRC.

awander · Dec 12, 2014

Surely you have an adapter or 2 for your B&S 9 spindle? Buy an ER-40 with an MT2 and stick it in the sleeve. B&S9 to MT2 are available every couple of week on ebay, it seems.

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 12, 2014

TGTool said:
Is that a threaded spindle that you've got the BS9 on? I've made a variety of ER-40 adapters for various spindles up into 2"+ IIRC.

Yes. It's 2.75" x something like 20TPI. Been a while since I looked. There's also a BHC of 1/4-20's on the face. My original thought was to purchase an ER40 plate and turn it down, drill some holes and bolt it on. But it seems that everyone one of the normal places is out of ER40 plates right now. I think I stumbled across one but it was so quickly dismissed as being ridiculously priced that I didn't even consider it a real answer.

awander said:
Surely you have an adapter or 2 for your B&S 9 spindle? Buy an ER-40 with an MT2 and stick it in the sleeve. B&S9 to MT2 are available every couple of week on ebay, it seems.

Yeah. Collets and solids and arbors. Oh my! ( couldn't resist ) But I'm averse to the stacking of interfaces. BS9 to MT2 or 3, to MT2 or 3 with ER40 chuck, to ER40 collet is just a wobble waiting to happen. I typically indicate to 1 or 2 ( 3 max ) tenths when working there, so I really don't want to be chasing that particular stack up. I want one single interface.

TGTool · Dec 12, 2014

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Yes. It's 2.75" x something like 20TPI. Been a while since I looked. There's also a BHC of 1/4-20's on the face. My original thought was to purchase an ER40 plate and turn it down, drill some holes and bolt it on. But it seems that everyone one of the normal places is out of ER40 plates right now. I think I stumbled across one but it was so quickly dismissed as being ridiculously priced that I didn't even consider it a real answer.

So can't you just machine one up for yourself? Once mounted on the spindle and turned in situ you'll have the best concentricity. One ID thread, one OD and an angle. Well, and some other whittling.

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 12, 2014

TGTool said:
So can't you just machine one up for yourself? Once mounted on the spindle and turned in situ you'll have the best concentricity. One ID thread, one OD and an angle. Well, and some other whittling.

Yep. Sure can. There's not much to them, or what I want. But I also said, "...and I'm getting picky where I spend my time these days."

Older I get, and less quick I am to run off and make tooling. Used to be a time when I'd stop everything to make a special tool or accessory. I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the way I realized that unless it is absolutely not available somewhere for purchase, that I'm not making money when I make tooling or accessories. As with all things in life, there's exceptions and some give and take... If I have to, I have to.

Truth is, I make tooling and fixturing and accessories ALL THE TIME. It's part of the job. But I also know that while I can make a reamer if I have to, I'm better off spending the jack to buy one and get to the business of business. Same with this. If I can just buy one ( even if it needs minor mods ), I can be that much farther ahead on keeping the machine running and making the shop money. I've seen the plates for sale for $50 to $75. It's just not worth my time to replicate that.

Besides, don't assume this is a lathe.

It's not. I just want collets there.

Thanks.

wesg · Dec 13, 2014

Was ER even invented before B&S was obsolete?

;-)

AFAIK, Mari does customs. But doesn't even show Morse taper ER chucks anymore.

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 13, 2014

Hey Bill,

thermite said:
With two mill spindles # 9 B &S, AND an Ellis DH, I've been scouting 'any' for three years, and ER-anything on #9 B&S almost as long.

Heh. I hadn't even thought about the numerous DH's I have with that. Good point, although likely will never come up for me if I haven't needed one for them as yet. ( more below )

thermite said:
Meanwhile, I use a straight-shank in a #9 B&S collet.

I thought about that briefly, but discounted it quickly for the exact same reasons as before - error stack. In this case, I think the taper in a taper would likely actually be better.

But, you've raised an interesting consideration now... I've this machine's application being discussed and now you've given rise to the thought of having quick collet ability on my dividing heads, and I imagine that I could even benefit by adding the capability to my manual lathe even though I have a collet closer and 5C nose insert. If I take all that seriously, I could almost justify making 4 for myself. I'd still rather find a decent source for the plates, but if I cannot it might just be palatable to make some...

jhruska · Dec 13, 2014

er-32 with #7 B&S threaded shank
Brown and Sharpe 7 ER32 Collet Chuck | eBay?
John

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 13, 2014

jhruska said:
er-32 with #7 B&S threaded shank
Brown and Sharpe 7 ER32 Collet Chuck | eBay?
John

John,

Thank, but I'd rather ER40. ( ER50 would be even more desirable ) ER32 does _nothing_ for me. Too limited. I want a minimum of 1.0" colleting capacity. Larger is better. This started because I was going to install a chuck there, and collets will actually work better for me.

Mike C. · Dec 13, 2014

Have never seen a B&S9 to ER, but had a TG or Accuflex (no idea which, as I had no need for it) in my hand last weekend.

abarnsley · Dec 13, 2014

Wells Index used to offer spindle regrinding service.. B&S #9 to R8..

Not knowing what you have exactly... This might be an option..

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 13, 2014

abarnsley said:
Wells Index used to offer spindle regrinding service.. B&S #9 to R8..
Not knowing what you have exactly... This might be an option..

Hi abarnsley - No, it's not. R8 would be dismal for work holding. It's pathetic enough in milling machines. I shudder to think about it holding actual work. Thanks though. I appreciate the thought. I did come very close to pulling the spindle and having it opened up for 5C a few years back. PLENTY of meat in there. It's not a very long spindle, either. For the price and time, though, slapping a ER40 plate on the nose makes more sense than pulling the spindle and opening it up. Keep'm coming...

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 13, 2014

thermite said:
30 taper if not 40 taper 'meat'?
The 40 at least would make very good sense IMNSHO. Mind. Prejudiced. It's my 'other' well-tooled set here - the Quartet's Horizontal and the K&T universal vertical adapter for it. Keyed and drawbarred for a mix of NMTB40 and CAT40.
The ER-40 has been added arredy, and was not all that dear, even brand-new. Several hang-out lengths easily found as well - even as 'sets'.
Haven't tried BT goods just yet, but AFAIK, just one more drawbar once the drive lugs have already been modified for Cat.
40 taper - for small/medium, but at least REAL mills - is about as competitive a market as R8 is for little mill/drills. Sometimes it is even cheaper. It will continue to be easy to find at least as Cat and BT for a loooong time.
Bill

Bill, it's a GREAT idea. I can't believe I never thought of it myself. Still, we're at the same point - time, effort, and cost of modification versus slapping a ER40 plate on the nose. I am getting by with fixturing and work holding right now, but I'd like to make life easier with the collets. The problem added is that even if there was no effort and cost to doing the spindle mod, I really don't want to have the machine down long enough to do so. It's a workhorse for me.

Makes money on an almost daily basis. Hence the search for the plate or adapters.

I've been searching off an on all day today, too. After a month of this and the conversation here, it seems like I need to suck it up and make a few plates or threaded spindle chucks... I really didn't want to, but here we are.

abarnsley · Dec 14, 2014

I was referring to the off the shelf R8 shank ER40 collet chucks, which exist all over...

Not the stiffest solution of course... A bit more overhang than I like..

I like my 50 taper tooling myself

Going to 40 taper solves everything..

Don't get hung up on ER..

It might actually be possible to find a B&S 9 to TG 100 or TG 150 collet chuck...

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 14, 2014

abarnsley said:
Don't get hung up on ER.. It might actually be possible to find a B&S 9 to TG 100 or TG 150 collet chuck...

Yes, Sir. You are absolutely correct to call me out on that. I got tunnel vision. I was thinking that since I have some other stuff in the shop that is ER, that holding pattern would make sense. But you're right. I should be looking at everything. Gonna go poke around now... May not even solve the issue, but at least I'm not limiting myself. Thanks.

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 15, 2014

thermite said:
TG's are good. And one can't ever have "too many" different types of collet sets .
... or can one?
Part of the reason for adopting ER here (ER 40 & ER 20) was to have fewer collets needed to cover the range, make it easier to have spares, or overlapping sets (US and Metric) be able to share resources and move work more easily between and among machines.
As to 'solving the issue' .. I can still send you that plate if you are up against a deadline - I am not.
But I don't know that a PLATE mount would be as fast and easy to adapt to a threaded or camlock backing plate as a 1 3/4" straight-tail could be to a taper.
There is precious little depth of material in the plate itself to do anything to/with. Plate-mount could swerve directly on a tee-slotted rotab or as a bench / tee-slot fixture. Most any spindle, OTOH, would want a backing plate.
The straight shanks are readily available and can be much less costly than plate-mounts as well.
Bill

Nah, no rush here. Just looking to make the machine easier. It's in use every day already. A plate will be simple. You'll recall that earlier I posted that the spindle has a Bolt Hole Circle on its face in addition to the 2-3/4"-16 thread on its OD. Drill and c'bore a few holes, lightly bolt to spindle face, indicate true, tighten, go. Should take all of an hour from drilling to usage. Will likely make a few plates over the holidays. I'll be in the shop cleaning up some personal projects anyway.

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 16, 2014

thermite said:
ER40 can find itself holding some stout stock and working with high loads. Likely you will be better served with more than just bolts, even if stout and shouldered ones. Not to forget - they'll distort the spindle just a tad, even before you start applying working loads, so will want at least a modest c'bore if they do not already have such.
Also not much convenience is gained anyway if each swap on/off requires indicating-in, and with bolts to tighten, not chuck jaws meant for that purpose.
Not an instant-gratification exercise holding an ER40 plate in a 4-J, either - but at least one can also set up to repeat modest eccentric turning as well as DN on.
Bill

No, no... There's very little load on this spindle under operation. And there's to be no swapping on'n'off. Once it's on, it's on. Period. The collets will allow a wide range of work, as well as other types of work holding, with creativity. Another similar machine has a bolt on 5C nose and it is never removed. It suffices just fine. The issue with doing same on this one is giving up the real estate required for the Bison type 5C chucks. I don't welcome losing 5" - 6" of working travel for the ability. The ER40 plate will take up ~ 2". I can live with that and the larger capacity afforded. You do remind me that I'll need to make up a ER40 center plug though... Thanks.

Zahnrad Kopf · Dec 16, 2014

Well, it's settled then. Just ordered a few ER40 nuts and a wrench. Guess I will see if I can find some time during the Holiday season to treat myself.

Thanks for the input everyone! Now if I can just remember to make the center plug.... LOL.

ER40 Chuck with B&S 9 tail?

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