Spindle bearings, no oil, how long before they die?

Horiz/vert Milling machine nearby, very nice condition, 1988 machine. May be the last year of manufacture from this company.
Two belts of four on drive pulleys shredded, single belt on oil pump Broken, no idea how long it has been broken.
Oil pump is driven from main motor drive shaft.
So the question is, why would they design in like this and how long would it take for the main spindle bearings to go bad?
Is it worth the risk? I currently have a Milwaukee and a Cinnci # 2 and this machine is nicer than either of those.
The machine has some nice features including a fully articulating vertical head.
It is an ex high school machine and is a very high quality machine.
No power to test machine. Spindle turns freely.

Seller doesn't know anything about condition, acquired it to re-sell.

Thanks for any insight.

Michael

M. Moore said:

Horiz/vert Milling machine nearby, very nice condition, 1988 machine. May be the last year of manufacture from this company.
Two belts of four on drive pulleys shredded, single belt on oil pump Broken, no idea how long it has been broken.
Oil pump is driven from main motor drive shaft.
So the question is, why would they design in like this and how long would it take for the main spindle bearings to go bad?
Is it worth the risk? I currently have a Milwaukee and a Cinnci # 2 and this machine is nicer than either of those.
The machine has some nice features including a fully articulating vertical head.
It is an ex high school machine and is a very high quality machine.
No power to test machine. Spindle turns freely.

Seller doesn't know anything about condition, acquired it to re-sell.

Thanks for any insight.

Michael

Click to expand...

It would HELP if you shared WHICH company and model.

Bound to be at least one PM'er who has, or has had, such. Even if it is a B&S, a Frey, Diamond, Sheldon, Rambaudi, Oerlikon Italia, or "that demned, elusive Pimpernel", itself - the ultra-rare USMT Quartet.

I'd think you could test the bearings easily enough for run out, excessive clearance, and "feel" as the spindle is rotated by hand. Maybe add some oil to the tank (and spin the pump with a hand drill or something if the machine does not have power), get some oil to the bearings and then repeat above checks.
If all seems good, probably a good chance the bearings are fine. If you detect any issues then expect the bearings are toast, probably difficult and expensive to replace as well! Just my $.02

Find the bearing size online, if its a special, price mill acordingly, if its common, again, let that control your offer price.

That said its not the bearings i would worry about, its more likely the gears that would be the real issue assuming its gear head?

M. Moore said:

Horiz/vert Milling machine nearby, very nice condition, 1988 machine. May be the last year of manufacture from this company.
Two belts of four on drive pulleys shredded, single belt on oil pump Broken, no idea how long it has been broken.
Oil pump is driven from main motor drive shaft.
So the question is, why would they design in like this and how long would it take for the main spindle bearings to go bad?
Is it worth the risk? I currently have a Milwaukee and a Cinnci # 2 and this machine is nicer than either of those.
The machine has some nice features including a fully articulating vertical head.
It is an ex high school machine and is a very high quality machine.
No power to test machine. Spindle turns freely.

Seller doesn't know anything about condition, acquired it to re-sell.

Thanks for any insight.

Michael

Click to expand...

bearings hold any oil ? often pump recirculates oil so it dont get as hot. if bearings held any oil they can be inspected for noise, growling noise, not smooth turning feel. if you can see the ball bearings and they look like they got moon craters on them they are bad

As I suspected, the answer is “ it depends!”, it is a bit difficult to do any testing as the machine is sitting on a pallet outside in a junk yard. The vertical head is still attached, which is good as the drive gear is still in place, bad for testing spindle bearings.
I think it difficult to see the bearings without removing a lot of parts, no idea which bearings it might take.
The motor is totally hidden inside the column so I can’t read the nameplate, tag says it is 440 volts but I want to see if the motor is dual voltage.

Here is a link to the sale ad.

rudolf carne and co g. dufour 1988 milling machine approx 3 tons Malahat (including Shawnigan Lake & Mill Bay), Victoria

It is a G Dufour 221R machine with a 12” x 52” table. If anyone knows which spindle bearings they might have used that would be a helpful start.
There is some urgency as the machine is sitting outside, uncovered, and it is going to rain soon.
Seller doesn’t know anything about machine tools.

Michael

M. Moore said:

As I suspected, the answer is “ it depends!”, it is a bit difficult to do any testing as the machine is sitting on a pallet outside in a junk yard. The vertical head is still attached, which is good as the drive gear is still in place, bad for testing spindle bearings.
I think it difficult to see the bearings without removing a lot of parts, no idea which bearings it might take.
The motor is totally hidden inside the column so I can’t read the nameplate, tag says it is 440 volts but I want to see if the motor is dual voltage.

Here is a link to the sale ad.

rudolf carne and co g. dufour 1988 milling machine approx 3 tons Malahat (including Shawnigan Lake & Mill Bay), Victoria

It is a G Dufour 221R machine with a 12” x 52” table. If anyone knows which spindle bearings they might have used that would be a helpful start.
There is some urgency as the machine is sitting outside, uncovered, and it is going to rain soon.
Seller doesn’t know anything about machine tools.

Michael

Click to expand...

Very well regarded mills. Don't make a problem out of a solution. Spindle turns, that's good enough start.

So long as you get a decent price.

What leads you to believe that the spindle is fed (lubed) via the oil pump?
Very rare in my experience on a mill...Especially one with two spindles...Is there a lube line and return to the vertical head?
If it articulates , seems there would have to be an external flex line if its oil fed....My vote is that the spindles are grease packed, and that the oil pump supplies
oil for other areas of the mill, like the gearboxes, bevel gears or ways....Or perhaps coolant?????
Manual Deckels use a gear pump for coolant, chain driven off the main drive motor and have an "In /out" dog clutch to turn it on and off....
Cheers Ross

Try here.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...-many-real-many-manuals-also-englisch-231022/

Bill D

This site has posts on the Dufour machines, so you might ask there, depending on some translation.

Alfa,
This machine is a horizontal and vertical, the vertical head is driven by the horizontal spindle.
The vertical head spindle is not the issue, the horizontal spindle is lubricated by the oil pump, it pumps oil from the bottom of the gearbox up to the top. I did make an assumption that it would need that to be working in order to provide oil to the bearings, splashing may be enough to provide oil but is that how it was designed, if so then what is the oil pump for?
My other mills have an integral oil pump like both of my lathes, this provides a constant flow of oil to the bearings and is visible in the sight glass. Without power it is impossible to tell if the oil would flow without the pump running.
Oil splashing in the gearbox may be the saving grace for those bearings, or they may be toast.
I may pass on the machine as I don’t really need another project if it turns bad.

Also thanks for the links I will have a look at those sites.

Michael