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    Default Spring making

    Hi all, I hope everyone is staying healthy.

    I'm a fly fishing reel maker up in BC. My reels are pretty simple. A frame, a spool, the reel foot, a spindle etc. There's a couple parts I have sent out because I've never learned to make them myself. The reel is pawl & gear. It's a very simple system and it is spring loaded. Basically the pawl is being forced on the gear with a spring. I have a shop to do the gear pawl and spring for me. And the cost is killing me. I would like to start making them in house. So I want to learn the hardening and tempering process. I don't think I'll be too challenged with the gear and pawl. But the spring is another story.

    Historically, the springs in old reels would last a lifetime. I own reels made by Hardy in England made in 1912 and 1905 and the spring are still very good. More modern reel company, including Hardy, still make springs for their reels. And at first I was thinking of changing my design to accommodate already made springs from other reel companies. But they are no good. Most fishermen have to change their springs on a 6 month to a years schedule in order to keep a tight spring. What gives?

    So I'm wondering if anyone could help me here. Someone with the right knowledge. The spring I need is 0.1875" wide by 0.09375" thick. So it's very thin and easily destroyed with an open flame. I use 1095 rolls. So all I need to do I cut to length and form before heat treating.

    Here's a picture of the interior. You can see the spring in there. The spring has to have strong tension. That's basically the drag system of the reel. So when I fish grab. You don't go free spool.

    Your help would be appreciated.

    Thanks

    John

    img_8185.jpg

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    I'm sure there are guys on here who can tell you all you need to know about it.

    That said, let's put on our modern business hats. A spring that last 100 years? Foolish! Be one of those makers who sells your faithful customers a new spring every 6 months at a staggering markup. After all, you have to make a living!

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    Cut and form 100 or so and send them out for hardening and drawn to a spring temper. They will come back with no scale and tempered to a specified target. The last thing you need is your big buck custom reels coming back with broken or failed amateur tempered springs..........Bob

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    "The spring I need is 0.1875" wide by 0.09375" thick." Did you miss a zero on the thickness? Are you starting with hardened or annealed?

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    No specific knowledge as I only wind springs from music wire, but that design could be trouble. I'd want to analyze the stresses to make sure it's well within material limits. No reason it can't last 100 years if you do that. Next, I wouldn't heat treat that myself, or not without buying fairly expensive equipment. Best to send it out for heat treatment.

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    I believe you have too high a spring constant, by that I mean that a small deflection causes a large change in spring force. That also means that you have a small region that the spring will operate properly. Outside of the that region, the spring will be too weak or too strong. Over bend it just a little and it will not come back. The material needs to be thinner and when it is assembled cannot just drop in place but has to "squeezed". Your basic design needs to be reviewed by somewhat that knows spring design.

    Tom

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    Hello John,
    Why are you using a spring that thick ?
    The Hardy Princess and Featherweight use the same thickness Leaf Spring.
    0.025" approx. In fact they look like the same spring, without measuring
    the layout between rivetted standoffs. Of course Hardy uses an adjustable
    pressure Check so you can set it higher or lower to suit whatever tippet
    you may be using.
    That looks to be a rather large diameter reel to be using a fixed check.
    Why don't you make it adjustable.
    As you know that spring design has been used for many years by Hardy,
    Dingley, Young Bros. etc. I've never heard of one of those springs breaking.
    If you can use the same spring in multiple sizes, if you make different sizes,
    then if you have enough volume I would second having the heat treating done
    by others.
    The "Gear" in the pawl check system would be a piece of cake to make if you
    have the machines. You realize of course that the "Gear" doesn't have to actually
    be a gear tooth. You could just as well use a double angle milling cutter in
    a milling machine to make a bunch.

    Larry S
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Swearingen Planing Forms - Home

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    That spring in addition to its static preload stress is subject to cyclic fatigue. What is the length of the deflecting portion of the spring (eg. from post to pawl), and what is the total deflection of that portion (in installed position, and when being deflected by the gear). The maximum stress in that beam/spring requires calculating (a rough idea can be used from standard cantilever beam formulas). The maximum stress when deflected needs to be a max of 1/2 the tensile strength of the steel to provide good fatigue life (below the "endurance limit" stress level) A good surface finish on the spring faces and edges also helps.

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    I have made a couple v springs from scratch which was time consuming.
    I have also made several coil springs from music wire that's easy.
    I have also made flat/curved springs from prehardened "blue spring steel" which requires no heat treatment.

    Have you talked to the shop owner to see if you can do anything differently that would lower the price?

    Possibly larger quantitys, small design changes to make it easier to make, longer lead times, prompt payment, etc.

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    In some of the equipment I deal with, we use a spring that is 0.030" thick and 1" wide. It's a leaf spring with a height of about .56" by about 3" long. I can compress it to flat and will spring back to its normal height without taking a set. They are made of Inconel X750 material. Strength wise, it's about the same as 1095 but less likely to take a set over long usage. Also won't corrode as easily as 1095 will. Just a thought there. Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    I'm sure there are guys on here who can tell you all you need to know about it.

    That said, let's put on our modern business hats. A spring that last 100 years? Foolish! Be one of those makers who sells your faithful customers a new spring every 6 months at a staggering markup. After all, you have to make a living!
    Thanks for the advise. There's plenty of large production reel company with this mindset. Id rather make a reel people will be blown away with. The reel that were made 100 years ago and even 50 years ago are the one still being used today. I want my product to be bomb proof. And Im not a business man. Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forestgnome View Post
    "The spring I need is 0.1875" wide by 0.09375" thick." Did you miss a zero on the thickness? Are you starting with hardened or annealed?
    Nope, not missing a zero. Annealed. I wouldn't be able to shape it if it was hardened I would think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    I believe you have too high a spring constant, by that I mean that a small deflection causes a large change in spring force. That also means that you have a small region that the spring will operate properly. Outside of the that region, the spring will be too weak or too strong. Over bend it just a little and it will not come back. The material needs to be thinner and when it is assembled cannot just drop in place but has to "squeezed". Your basic design needs to be reviewed by somewhat that knows spring design.

    Tom
    Thanks Tom, It's hard to see on the picture but the pawl is not a perfect triangle. The top part of the triangle lean towards the bend return in the spring. The thing is, it's really not easy to make a reel reel in easy and reel out really hard. That's why the shape is the way it is. I put a lot of time testing what works best. And as other member suggested. This design has been used by many reel makers many times over the last century. It is called the 1912 check. Because it was first used in 1912 in Hardy's reels. So the design has been proven to work super well. Its actually know as the best check design in the industry. The brass cage over the pawl is there to keep the pawl from flipping on a hot fish. This reel was design specifically for Steelhead fish. Which is the most powerful fish per pound in the world. When a 20 pound steelhead fresh from the ocean grabs your fly. You better hold on.

    Also, I have made a bunch with this design and people are very happy with it. The spring I've used so far have been very good. Like I was saying. The shape of the pawl is not a perfect triangle. It leans toward the bend in the spring. So when the fish takes line. It's pushing against the hardest part to bend on the spring. And when you reel in. The other corner of the pawl is pushing towards the end of the spring. And that way its smooth and easy to reel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry S View Post
    Hello John,
    Why are you using a spring that thick ?
    The Hardy Princess and Featherweight use the same thickness Leaf Spring.
    0.025" approx. In fact they look like the same spring, without measuring
    the layout between rivetted standoffs. Of course Hardy uses an adjustable
    pressure Check so you can set it higher or lower to suit whatever tippet
    you may be using.
    That looks to be a rather large diameter reel to be using a fixed check.
    Why don't you make it adjustable.
    As you know that spring design has been used for many years by Hardy,
    Dingley, Young Bros. etc. I've never heard of one of those springs breaking.
    If you can use the same spring in multiple sizes, if you make different sizes,
    then if you have enough volume I would second having the heat treating done
    by others.
    The "Gear" in the pawl check system would be a piece of cake to make if you
    have the machines. You realize of course that the "Gear" doesn't have to actually
    be a gear tooth. You could just as well use a double angle milling cutter in
    a milling machine to make a bunch.

    Larry S
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Swearingen Planing Forms - Home
    Thanks Larry. This is not a trout reel. It is a steelhead reel. The spring have roughly similar dimension as a 4" Hardy Perfect or Unique 1912. The reel is 3 3/4" diameter by 1 1/4" wide.

    The reason I never wanted to add an adjustment on the load of the spring is because 99/100 of the time people don't use the adjustment. It's also something else that can fail. And it adds quite of bit of cost to the reel. So I decided to go the simpler is better way. I'm an avid steelhead fisherman. In the summer I work at a lodge on the Dean river. Which is the most famous steelhead river in the world. With the most powerful steelhead known to man. Every year I see clients with reels they paid a lot of money for. Literals explode on a hot fish. As of today. After a few years on the river. My reels have held up the test of the great steelhead of the Dean. And professional guides around the pacific northwest praise my reel to be one of the only modern reel that stand the Dean fishing. The design cannot change. I just want to learn how to make a good spring.
    Last edited by Johndifunk; 05-18-2020 at 02:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    That spring in addition to its static preload stress is subject to cyclic fatigue. What is the length of the deflecting portion of the spring (eg. from post to pawl), and what is the total deflection of that portion (in installed position, and when being deflected by the gear). The maximum stress in that beam/spring requires calculating (a rough idea can be used from standard cantilever beam formulas). The maximum stress when deflected needs to be a max of 1/2 the tensile strength of the steel to provide good fatigue life (below the "endurance limit" stress level) A good surface finish on the spring faces and edges also helps.
    The distance between post to pawl is 5/8" on the outgoing line and 1" on the ingoing line. Remember. There's two point of contact. The pawl is kinda triangle shaped. So when the line goes out. It push the harder part of the spring and when the line goes in it pushes the easiest part of the spring. Therefor reeling in is easier than reeling out. The deflection n the line out part is about 3/32". And as said, this design has been existing and praised for 100 years. So it is working super well. My only problem is the springs. I want to make them myself. From start to finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carlherrnstein View Post
    I have made a couple v springs from scratch which was time consuming.
    I have also made several coil springs from music wire that's easy.
    I have also made flat/curved springs from prehardened "blue spring steel" which requires no heat treatment.

    Have you talked to the shop owner to see if you can do anything differently that would lower the price?

    Possibly larger quantitys, small design changes to make it easier to make, longer lead times, prompt payment, etc.
    Thanks, I make about 35-40 reels a year so larger quantity is not an option. The amount I would need to have made to lower the price is 5000 MOD. So that won't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4GSR View Post
    In some of the equipment I deal with, we use a spring that is 0.030" thick and 1" wide. It's a leaf spring with a height of about .56" by about 3" long. I can compress it to flat and will spring back to its normal height without taking a set. They are made of Inconel X750 material. Strength wise, it's about the same as 1095 but less likely to take a set over long usage. Also won't corrode as easily as 1095 will. Just a thought there. Ken

    Thanks, I'll look into inconel X750 material. What is the carbon content?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johndifunk View Post
    Thanks, I'll look into inconel X750 material. What is the carbon content?
    Info here:
    Inconel X-750 Springs - General Description, material properties

    Your reels sound great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    I believe you have too high a spring constant, by that I mean that a small deflection causes a large change in spring force. That also means that you have a small region that the spring will operate properly. Outside of the that region, the spring will be too weak or too strong. Over bend it just a little and it will not come back. The material needs to be thinner and when it is assembled cannot just drop in place but has to "squeezed". Your basic design needs to be reviewed by somewhat that knows spring design.

    Tom
    i dont know spring design, but i would make the round section larger. also i would use good spring steel, not just 1095. if op needs 100 springs a year he can invest some time in making them. anneal with a hot-air gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    i dont know spring design, but i would make the round section larger. also i would use good spring steel, not just 1095. if op needs 100 springs a year he can invest some time in making them. anneal with a hot-air gun.
    Thanks. Can you tell me what is good spring steel. I was under the impression that 1095 and 1075 are the main spring steel on the market.


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