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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    It might not kill you but it might leave you all fucked up forever.
    Yes, I see it's doing a good job in Texas these days...

    Might even kill some of those rattle snakes & skeeters.
    Or will your rabid mob of enviro"mentalists" morn the loss ?

    And always remember to "Keep Austin Weird".....

  2. #142
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    ........I don't think it is fair to make a comparison with MSC either. They are a giant corp, sourcing from anywhere that might suit them (especially their "value" line), then marking it up 30% to give you a 25% discount.
    I will never forgive MSC for buying ENCO getting rid of them and then raising their prices. They suck pond water.

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    I have never used Mari tool. Not for any specific reason. This comment is directed at what you are purchasing....collets and your location of manufacturer preferences.
    I was on a large project that required us to buy many new holders, extensions, collets etc. I have never paid alot of attention to where we ordered this stuff from. A sales rep for an unnamed distributor convinced us we could save quite a bit of money and stretch our tooling budget by going with a Chinese "knock off" sort of brand. He pointed out the specs etc. were listed the same as the more expensive brands. When we got the tooling in we decided we would check runout on every tool when we assembled them.....I am guessing about 75% of them did not meet the spec as listed in the catalog. We did return them...bought our usual brand (more $) and when we checked them....every one of them met the stated runout tolerance.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    I will never forgive MSC for buying ENCO getting rid of them and then raising their prices. They suck pond water.
    LOL! I "forgive" MSC same way I "forgive" Amazon for interfering in politics so nastily.

    By always letting the other army of arseholes.. "Go ogle" is it? Lead me FIRST to the rather good MSC and Amazon online catalog databases. Easier to search than MMC.

    .so I know exactly what specs and nomenclature to use..

    When I actually BUY.. from ANYBODY BUT the opportunistic arseholes . even if the price is SIGNIFICANTLY higher.

    I don't even "shop" MariTool's prices. Frank knows he has competition. His job to do the best he can to price agin' it. Not my job.

    If I want what he makes so predictably well?

    I JF ORDER it.

    Same as I ordered-up an air-strike without asking if the Navy knew how to fly a pair of A6 or not.

    That simple. Had other s**t on my OWN plate to do then.

    Still do.

    Person can run hisself clear out of life left to live they keep trying to second-guess the actual EXPERTS at some OTHER tasking than their own!

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    @ JohnMartin. I don't think it is the fact of him being a hobbyist (although some did explicitly say they didn't want to deal with hobbyist), it's just a general perception I think from people who do this for a living. We get, on this site, far more people who don't know what they are doing, but then refuse to accept any advice after they ask questions, OR like OP, come here and piss and moan about something entirely stupid, slamming a respectable member here for no good reason.

    I don't think it is fair to make a comparison with MSC either. They are a giant corp, sourcing from anywhere that might suit them (especially their "value" line), then marking it up 30% to give you a 25% discount.
    Mike, I think we agree.

    The hobbyists who come here with no understanding of the subject, who have done no research including checking the archives, who ask a stupid question and expect everyone to fill in the blanks - and then argue with the answers they get - needs to be told to simply ESAD or FOAD. - - And Die. But the hobbyist who has done his homework and then asks a reasonable question - one he might have a tough time finding an answer to elsewhere - has generally been accepted. If the forum owner chose to require professional credentials to be here that would be his right, but I think it would be a shame. Iíd bet there are a few members here whose knowledge in specific areas is more than that of some of our pros - and you might not even know who they are.

    What I was objecting to were comments to the effect that suppliers should refuse to deal with hobbyists just because they are not pros. Let them set minimum orders or return policies to reduce the unprofitable orders, but donít ban the hobbyists outright. If the electrical supply houses or the auto parts stores did the same, I think youíd see a lot of bitching here. After all, every professional is a professional only within his specific field of work.

    I didnít mean to compare MariTool to MSC. I picked MSC just as an example. If beeser had made the same complaints about MSC, heíd have been just as much of a jackass in doing so.

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  7. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    I will never forgive MSC for buying ENCO getting rid of them and then raising their prices. They suck pond water.
    What got me is when they bought Rutland, which had a store in the City of Industry where I would stop in once a week. Once MSC took that store over prices went up 25% while at the same time the list of stocked items dropped substantially. That location was closed down not long after MSC took over.

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    Thread drift. MSC was once the discount source. My customer number is 5 digits starting with a 2, what are they up to now? In '78 or so, they were known as Manhattan Supply Co, a division of Sid Tool, with one location on Long Island and a catalog about the size of an old Enco catalog, Their prices were the lowest, and they were everyone's first resort for tools and tooling, you looked elsewhere for things MSC didn't have. Gradually they grew, sales were good because of the low prices, then bought out the competition, Now they charge a premium because they can. Shrewd businesspeople. I don;t think I've bought from them in 2 years though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    Thread drift. MSC was once the discount source. My customer number is 5 digits starting with a 2, what are they up to now? In '78 or so, they were known as Manhattan Supply Co, a division of Sid Tool, with one location on Long Island and a catalog about the size of an old Enco catalog, Their prices were the lowest, and they were everyone's first resort for tools and tooling, you looked elsewhere for things MSC didn't have. Gradually they grew, sales were good because of the low prices, then bought out the competition, Now they charge a premium because they can. Shrewd businesspeople. I don;t think I've bought from them in 2 years though.
    Agree.
    I bought some stuff from them, late 70's or early 80's and still have it. Some measuring tool under the Manhattan Supply name. They gradually drifted farther and farther from the original pricing setup. I agree with those above the it was not a good thing for us when they purchased companies that had good prices and performed well. I'd also bought stuff from Rutland and Enco, and IIRC they bought JL supply too.

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    I miss enco... so sigh and then order from MSC occasionally. I prefer victornet and similar, especially for onesy-twosy things.

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    Even if Frank had been able to ship USPS it on Monday, there is no guarantee arrival would have been timely. All of the big 3 (USPS, UPS, Fedex) have shown me they can perform at a "less than stellar" level. I just had a guy call about some parts we shipped Priority Mail on the 12th via USPS, and they are somehow still stuck he in California, instead of arriving a few days ago in Tennessee.
    For the last year, it seems like trying to get stuff done can be like trying to run in mud. Fortunately I'm and old guy now, and life has "learned me" some patience. Still get frustrating when they charge the credit card AND send it COD. FOR THE 4TH FREAKIN TIME! There's been times in my life I couldn't afford a $5K hit like that, especially since they take WEEKS to get the card refunded.
    Hope you are all safe and warm.
    Frank, keep doing what you are doing!

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  15. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Good question so a couple thoughts.
    There are good and bad hobbyist to sell to.

    Bad:
    Hobbyist tend to have lots of time to search the net so want the lowest price they can find. They do not understand why they can not buy 1 pc at the 500 pc price or why inserts come in tens.
    In tooling hobbyist tend to eat up lots of tech support time for very small orders.
    Hobbyist tend to think the Amazon or Walmart type sales rather than industrial sales and lead times.
    Some can be very hard to please and if they have feeds/speeds/usage wrong they blame the vendor and make noise.

    Good:
    Hobbyist can be very loyal and promote the brand name a lot. One may lose money on the order but buy advertising and good will.

    I do wonder how much of Maritool's sales are one holder of much worse yet one lower cost endmill?
    I think this in the customer who wants one TPG-322 for 3-5 dollars. Pull from stock, put into tray that costs, put into an box that costs, print the labels............. I can not make this model work.
    Bob
    Bob:

    I feel your pain. Really, I do. Iíve worked for companies whose customers numbered in the millions, and yet itís always just a few real stinkers who stand out. Try telling a salesman that itís sometimes necessary to fire his customer and heíll argue with you, but sometimes itís true.

    I donít think that itís just the hobbyists that will search the Internet for the best price, but maybe thatís so only on large ticket stuff. The worst of it, though, is when a guy takes up one of your tech peopleís time, gets a recommendation, and then goes elsewhere to purchase it for pennies less.

    You mentioned the guy who wants you to break a package of inserts. How about the guy who wants to send you a self-addressed stamped envelope instead of paying your shipping and handling charges? The guy who wants to pay just the actual shipping cost, because why should he pay for handling?

    Small unprofitable orders can be avoided by setting a minimum order at which you can at least break even. Youíll always get a few customers who insist on returning something that they themselves screwed up. I once worked for Brookstone, where we had a no questions asked return policy. Yeah, we got screwed a few times. But we felt that that policy gave us a much greater boost in sales than the unwarranted returns and refunds that it cost us.

    If you establish a high minimum order, will that cost you the customer who may first try you out on a small order and then become one of your largest and most profitable customers? In my experience, the first time customer placing the small order may never become a great one. As to his value regarding word of mouth advertising, who knows? You may get some valuable publicity from him. But screw up - or even let him think you screwed up - and everyone he ever knew will hear about it.

    Enough complaining from me - you already know all this stuff. Sometimes it feels good to let it out, though.

    John

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  17. #152
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    You mentioned the guy who wants you to break a package of inserts. How about the guy who wants to send you a self-addressed stamped envelope instead of paying your shipping and handling charges? The guy who wants to pay just the actual shipping cost, because why should he pay for handling?
    You forgot the guy who complains about the direct UPS cost because it's higher than what Amazon/walmart/etc would charge for the same service,. because you don't get the mega discount from UPS. Those guys don't care that you pay a weekly service charge from UPS just to get the truck to your door every day. "Oh Wow, that much?"

  18. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    You forgot the guy who complains about the direct UPS cost because it's higher than what Amazon/walmart/etc would charge for the same service,. because you don't get the mega discount from UPS. Those guys don't care that you pay a weekly service charge from UPS just to get the truck to your door every day. "Oh Wow, that much?"
    I am amazed at how high UPS rates are for the little guy now. I rarely use UPS now, but did back in Cali when I sold my own products. If my memory serves me correctly it looks like they have doubled rates in the last dozen years.

  19. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    By always letting the other army of arseholes.. "Go ogle" is it? Lead me FIRST to the rather good MSC and Amazon online catalog databases. Easier to search than MMC.
    Actually, no. I've noticed that in Amazon, even if you type in almost exactly what you want, the "featured" items always come out on top. If you click on some preferred type of sorting, then all sorts of irrelevant BS comes up. So you search for a specific type of computer screen, with a specific brand name and size, and you get four pages of off-brand poor quality screens. Click on sort by "Customer ratings" and suddenly you have 7000 listings for... therapeutic adenoid creme or somesuch.

    I use google (or duckduckgo) to search for something, and then click on the amazon or ebay directly. Of course, if I want adenoid creme, I can go directly to Fred's Nasal Supplies ("Everything adenoid!").

    But I hate Amazon's search function.

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  21. #155
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    Given that the USA is rapidly turning into a 3rd world banana republic, I don't hold any of my suppliers responsible for what happens after the product leaves their premises. They've all been good about it, and I understand that things are just as trying for them, as it is for me. I try to leave extra time to plan and place orders far in advance nowadays.

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  23. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    Now he will jump in and complain that you were open for business and took his order on a holiday. Probably godless commies working there. Being a teacher I know about every possible holiday. I am surprised you were open on that holiday.
    Berkeley does not honor Columbus day instead they do indigenous peoples day.
    Bill D.
    In California we no longer do admission day as a holiday. Do any states still do it? Bedside the original 13.

    No, but we do have a semi-official independence holiday(from Mexico), march 2, and San Jacinto day, April 21. Both were widely celebrated when I was a kid , San Jacinto was a school holiday..

  24. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    LOL! I "forgive" MSC same way I "forgive" Amazon for interfering in politics so nastily.

    By always letting the other army of arseholes.. "Go ogle" is it? Lead me FIRST to the rather good MSC and Amazon online catalog databases. Easier to search than MMC.

    .so I know exactly what specs and nomenclature to use..

    When I actually BUY.. from ANYBODY BUT the opportunistic arseholes . even if the price is SIGNIFICANTLY higher.

    I don't even "shop" MariTool's prices. Frank knows he has competition. His job to do the best he can to price agin' it. Not my job.

    If I want what he makes so predictably well?

    I JF ORDER it.

    Same as I ordered-up an air-strike without asking if the Navy knew how to fly a pair of A6 or not.

    That simple. Had other s**t on my OWN plate to do then.

    Still do.

    Person can run hisself clear out of life left to live they keep trying to second-guess the actual EXPERTS at some OTHER tasking than their own!
    Ha. Amazon sucks pond water, too, but I pretty much have to use them because there's really nothing else and I can get stuff the next day. .

    I think that I understood most of your post here but I sent it out anyway for translation and conversion to standard English.

    Don't get me wrong, your still "Da man"

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  26. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    Ha. Amazon sucks pond water, too, but I pretty much have to use them because there's really nothing else and I can get stuff the next day. .

    I think that I understood most of your post here but I sent it out anyway for translation and conversion to standard English.

    Don't get me wrong, your still "Da man"
    Well "serendipity" happens even to incoherent Old Farts.

    Frank just advised the slightly "oddball" ER-20 (one of the least-popular amongst the ER tribe, as well) holder I ordered is scheduled around 10 to 12 weeks out, hence on back order.

    Told him I was good wit' dat'. It is meant to solve a merely potential problem I do not yet HAVE.

    And may never.

    Ain't I the f*****g plan-well-ahead prescient GENIUS .. by accident.. for not NEEDING "next day delivery"!

    Nor even next YEAR, most probably!



    What some of my friends in the Diamond biz - where culturally, a question is NEVER responded to with an answer. Only with another QUESTION [1]... used to joke about;

    First Question: "If we really are God's 'chosen people' why were so many Gentiles created?"

    Second Question: "Whom else would ever pay 'retail'?"

    In a like manner?

    SOMEBODY had to place an order with MariTool as didn't involved busting his chops for THEIR lack of planning!

    Hope he doesn't have to wait all year for another easy one?

    Pragmatic, lad, Frank is. Just check out his "promotional" goods:

    Large - Nobody Cares Work Harder MariTool T-Shirt MariTool



    [1] "So why does a Jew always answer a question with ANOTHER question?"
    "So why shouldn't a Jew always answer a question with another question?"

  27. #159
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    Re the difference between an amateur and a professional- there is one inescapable difference. The professional has to perform even though he is having a bad day and would rather stay in bed but he goes to work anyway. The amateur doesn't have to work if he doesn't feel like it. Different mind set.

    Bill

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  29. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Re the difference between an amateur and a professional- there is one inescapable difference. . .
    Maybe two: The pro has to make tolerance on time, the hobby guy can go slow or do over until its 'perfect'.

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