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  1. #21
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    A professional in any field is someone who has a cold, just had a fight with his wife, his kid has brought home a lousy report card, the power steering on his car is leaking and the weather guessers are predicting an ice storm later in the day, but he goes to work and turns in a day's work. Maybe not stellar performance, but marketable product.

    An amateur doesn't feel like working that day and turns on the TV.

    Bill

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    I think Milacron's guidelines are perfect. Easy to judge whether a discussion is appropriate or not by simply filtering on machine type, no judgement calls, no ambiguity regarding professional versus hobby versus amateur versus experienced.

    AND, as a forum member who a few years ago didn't know anything about this stuff, I did two things when I first started using the site: I just read a bunch of posts to get a lay of the land, AND I read the guidelines. Understanding these allow me to interact frequently and in depth and learn a LOT along the way without anyone getting upset.

    There are a large number of folks that are happy playing with consumer machines in their garages as a hobby and don't have the time or werewithall to apply themselves in a way that a professional machinist would to really learn the art. This site is not for them.

    On the other hand, there are folks that are very motivated to learn the craft and are starting with very little skill and knowledge, but are motivated to listen and learn and aquire the necessary machines and tools to become experts. These are the folks that should be encouraged on this site....I think of these folks as "apprentices" in the old days when that was the only way to learn these skills, now we have the internet and a fantastic group of machinists on the PM site that act as a virtual apprenticing program....it grows the community, spreads the knowledge and skills, and probably keeps some skills alive that might otherwise disappear given the rapidly aging demographics of certain types of machining.

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    @ferretlegger you have expressed the exact sentiment that I hope can extend across PM when new folks enter this world.

    I’ve been fortunate in how I been treated but others have not and that’s a genuine shame.

    No one on the planet was born knowing how to do much more than breathe. Every thing we do today we had to learn. From someone else.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  5. #24
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    I don't know about all of this commentary, but to put it concisely, beginners and amateurs and hobbyists are plenty welcome here. I've helped plenty myself. Knuckleheads on the other hand...

    One thing I've noticed that ruffles feathers on pretty much all the experienced fellows here is when someone shows up and thinks they know what they're talking about when they don't. Then they get corrected and want to start an argument or get offended about it.

    I get it. Look back at where you were when you had 3 or 4 years of experience and remember how much you thought you knew. Now when you have 20, or 40, or whatever, you look back and realize how little you actually knew. Those guys coming in with 1 or 2 years think they are hot shit, but they just don't know... how much they don't know. Like that guy the other day talking about "I don't know anybody who has taken a cut this big in 4140 at 300 SFM. I really know my shit!" Kid that's an every day cut in a real shop with the right machinery.

    Standard procedure in some shops I've worked was to push the tooling until it broke, then back off a notch. Grip and rip. You want to see a big cut look up some historical Mesta or Blaw-Knox roll lathes. Many had dual carriages that ran in opposite directions to minimize thrust pressure against the headstock or tailstock so they didn't blow out the bearings. They might pull a couple inches depth of cut per side at a ridiculous feedrate.

    The attitude for me when I was a young pup (even today) was to have an open mind and think that everyone I came across could teach me something. And to show appreciation for it. That attitude seems sorely lacking today in a largely "instant gratification" world.

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    There s the thing...some of the "dumbest" items on PM get the most airtime.....and ban me if Im wrong,but PM is a commercial enterprise.....some here might consider that a very staid and proper forum where ya cant even say d**mn without getting a email ,has started a "politics" section...why?....to get the count up and pay the bills.

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    Imo, the site is for whoever the owner of PM decides it’s for. With the amount of information I’ve learned on this site, maybe I should buy another machine from the man...

    Regards,
    Lucky7

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  9. #27
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    Hi Michael:

    Just sent you a PM.

    Cheers, Brian

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    I’d like to see the wanna-be-moderators stop being so bitchy. Its pretty easy to direct a new poster to a different forum without insulting them. Then let the real mods do their thing.

    The recurrent bouts of posting diarrhea by some “professional” members is way more tiring than a few “dumb” questions by the new guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    There are qty (3) well known hobby sites.

    There is only qty (1) PM.

    Go those forums and stop trying to change things here just to suit you.
    I'm not trying to change anything to suit me, I'm perfectly happy here. I just thought too much time and energy is wasted here complaining about and insulting hobbyists. Seemed worth thinking about

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    Not too long ago, one of these newcomer amateurs was referred to another site, and this was followed up by another member with criticism of the reference. Maybe the stickies could include reference to preferred alternatives for the newbies.

    It seems to be this time of year when guys are sitting around thinking about the could've, would've, should've in their lives, and get around to asking about machine tools. Perhaps we could put out patient hats on, just like going to Lowes.

    For some reason, the green bear sends me their "industrial" tool catalog every year. I see that they are now offering Chinese lathes of 20" X 60" weighing almost 3 tons. Taiwanese "SB" lathes even bigger. We might begin considering that someday their offerings may become acceptable machine tools. Not today, but someday.

    At this point, I'd like to add that I'm truly impressed with the helpfulness offered to folks trying to drag some corner of Africa into some semblance of a modern world. I've abandoned the first and longest website I frequented due to regular and poorly veiled racism. While there may be some curmudgeons and cranks here, this is by far the best and most knowledgeable group of people I've found on the www.

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    Hoo boy, soon to be posting a different thread related to this subject. Please no not respond to it if you have rectal cranial inversion.

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    Default A suggestion for dealing with hobby machinist posts

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    No, you come here to bitch us out.

    Period.

    Troll
    No, actually I came here to learn.
    And part of what I’ve learned so far is that some folks here want to help. Others don’t.

    I note that you are the only person in this thread that has reacted by being insulted and accusatory.

    Pick your camp.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  19. #33
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    I served a good apprenticeship from 16 to 21. Looking back now I realise that when I was finally let loose on my own I knew just enough to be dangerous. I thought I was pretty damn good, I wasn't, but I had the basics and the right attitude to the job. That'll take you a long way. We all have to start somewhere and it's a steep learning curve at first. That experience taught me not to abuse the apprentices that came after me and I try not to abuse " beginners " on here.

    Nobody on this site is compelled to read or answer any post. Some from " beginners " I respond to and some I don't. At my age my time is valuable so I chose how to " waste " it. I think the site is fine as it is. Hand on heart I can't see myself being drawn to reading what would be seen solely as a " beginners section ". However I'll go along with whatever the owner decides.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    . . .We all have to start somewhere and it's a steep learning curve at first. That experience taught me not to abuse the apprentices that came after me and I try not to abuse " beginners " on here.
    Well said, and good to remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    . . .Nobody on this site is compelled to read or answer any post. . .
    Yes, no one is compelled by an outside influence to do such, but a few here feel compelled to admonish (to put it lightly), and I really believe these individuals just want to get their post count up. That's odd, because a hundred-thousand bits of garbage is still garbage. A more worthy goal would be to post as many 'jewels' as you can and help make this community the best it can be.

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  22. #35
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    How about putting a guard on the other forum sections too.

    Running a 1/4 hp 90 vdc motor at 120 vdc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy887 View Post
    Hoo boy, soon to be posting a different thread related to this subject. Please no not respond to it if you have rectal cranial inversion.

    Is it OK if my old boss responds to you.?He was afflicted with that condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    Is it OK if my old boss responds to you.?He was afflicted with that condition.
    He already said NO! I think we're all familiar with people who have had or still have that infliction. Some of us may suffer from a flare-up of said condition ourselves from time to time. But not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Heaton View Post
    Well said, and good to remember.



    Yes, no one is compelled by an outside influence to do such, but a few here feel compelled to admonish (to put it lightly), and I really believe these individuals just want to get their post count up. That's odd, because a hundred-thousand bits of garbage is still garbage. A more worthy goal would be to post as many 'jewels' as you can and help make this community the best it can be.
    Gordon Gordon Gordon. You do remember you're on the Practical Machinist website and not the Happy Grandmas website, don't you?

    Although that would surely be "nice" and certainly worthy it will never happen. The old curmudgeonly machinist is a stereotype for a reason, as are many stereotypes. And aside from that, it seems many trolls actually like to troll for fun. If something amuses someone, they probably won't stop doing it. As disappointing as that may be.

    I guess the bright side is that we are still on the Practical Machinist website, and there is still a lot of good information available here from very knowledgeable fellows. The signal-to-noise ratio, in other words, is still pretty clean. Could we still use a filter? Absolutely, but then we might lose some of the good information too. I'd rather act as my own filter.

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    If you think you know about something, then try teaching it to somebody. Then you really get to know about the subject.
    Have learned a few things when helping out with what appears to be a novice question.
    Last edited by rons; 01-07-2020 at 12:35 PM.

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    I'm in the boat of letting the armature hobby guys go to another site. Not "against" them or anything, just think the internet-world is big enough without re-inventing the wheel.

    IMO a simple solution would be to have a 10 question test for all new members to fill out when they sign up. It seems to me that 99% of them pull the "I didn't know" card when they are told to read the sticky's, so why not cap that earlier? Just a short quiz with things like "True/False: Atl4$ made precision machinery", and "How many millions of dollars a year in parts are produced on $heerline machines?" It doesn't matter how "true" the test is, it just makes the newbie actually think about what the site is supposed to be about before they are allowed to start posting. If they don't know, they need to read and lurk a bit longer.

    From my experience, a good life skill to have is being able to tailor your dialog to fit a crowd. Don't lie. Don't brown-nose. But know your demographic and don't gripe when you get it wrong. If the crowd IS somehow flawed, you're better to leave them be or try to fix it from the inside out, rather than just pounding on it from the outside and further hardening the shell around it.

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