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Tap drill size/Thread form question - 5/8 or 3/4 total height?

WizardOfBoz

Diamond
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Location
SE PA, Philly
On another site, someone wanted the proper drill size for a M6 (6mm x 1mm pitch) tap. I suggested number 6, 7, or 8, or a 13/64. In the range of 5.05 to 5.18mm. I got a 13/64 (5.159mm) giving you about 77% thread engagment. Others suggested that the standard drill size for M6 is 5mm. They estimated that this gives you 77% thread. Obviously, 77% thread can't be both 5mm and 5.16mm.

The metric thread form specification is shown on Wikipedia (below). If you look at a picture of metric thread form, the height of the thread for an internal thread is about 5/8 of the theoretical thread height. That theoretical thread height H, is sqrt(3)/2 * pitch. For a 1mm pitch, H is 0.866mm. And 5/8 of that is 0.541mm. Twice that gives us a number of 1.082mm. That is, for 100% threads you want 6-1.082, or a 4.88mm drill. And hence I get 5.16 giving me 77% thread.

The other fellow suggested that 100% threads are calculated using 3/4 of H, not 5/8. And attributed this to historical reasons. Looking at the picture, it should be 5/8 H, and using smaller drills would not give you better threads but would make for harder threading and would break more taps.

By the way, we both found websites that supported the estimates we gave.

So... 5/8 or 3/4? And 13/64" or 5mm?

Thanks.

400px-ISO_and_UTS_Thread_Dimensions.svg.png
 
according to my info 5mm is the accepted ISO standard tapping size.

However 5mm = 0.1969'' ……….on tough / hard / horrible material, where I can, I use 13/64 = 0.2031'' the extra 0.0062'' making life easier.
 
according to my info 5mm is the accepted ISO standard tapping size.

However 5mm = 0.1969'' ……….on tough / hard / horrible material, where I can, I use 13/64 = 0.2031'' the extra 0.0062'' making life easier.


Thanks, Samy. But does the 5mm correspond to 77% or 92% or...?

I guess I'm fundamentally looking for clarification on the 5/8 vs 3/4 issue. With this unresolved, my universe is out of balance...
 
Guhring gives 4,70mm hole size for 100% M6 thread.

Note that 1/4 of the imaginary thread triangle tops are missing from the "ideal standard thread" in your drawing. 100% thread doesn't have sharp triangles, only maximum what standard allows. Anything more would bind with the counterpart.
6-Sqrt(3)*3/4 =4,70mm =100% thread.
77% bore size for M6:
6 mm-Sqrt(3)*3/4*77%= 4.9997 mm = 5.0 mm
 
Just put a target up on the wall. When in doubt, throw a dart and see what it says.
You can even get these little spinner thingies that you snap and the pointer tells you if you should buy or sell stocks..:skep:

I would go with darts, though. I think it's less biased. :popcorn:
 
Just put a target up on the wall. When in doubt, throw a dart and see what it says.
You can even get these little spinner thingies that you snap and the pointer tells you if you should buy or sell stocks..:skep:

I would go with darts, though. I think it's less biased. :popcorn:

Diameter minus pitch works like a magic for a metric 77% thread. Or I guess it works also for murican UN thread but the numbers get wonky.
65/16"-1/18" = F
7/16"-1/14" = U
.
.
.
 
now tell me, if you take the screw, 1/8 of the height is cut off. 1/8 x 0.866 = 0.108. 6 - 0.216 = 5.784. thats about what a m6 screw measures. so do screws always have 100% engagement?
 
now tell me, if you take the screw, 1/8 of the height is cut off. 1/8 x 0.866 = 0.108. 6 - 0.216 = 5.784. thats about what a m6 screw measures. so do screws always have 100% engagement?

There is no pressing manufacturing reasons for a bolt not to have near 100% theoretical major diameter. (unlike tapped holes that get lot more scary if you attempt to tap at 100% thread)
(Exept maybe bolts for hot galvanizing or something like that.)
 
There is no pressing manufacturing reasons for a bolt not to have near 100% theoretical major diameter. (unlike tapped holes that get lot more scary if you attempt to tap at 100% thread)
(Exept maybe bolts for hot galvanizing or something like that.)

Yeah, and the drawing shows that the major diameter goes out to the top of the crest, not the theoretical point of a sharp thread. Put another way, that 1/8 of the thread height is already accounted for in the major diameter. So the number for the radius difference SHOULD be 5/8, not 3/4 of thread height.

Looking around, I'm seeing that the minor diameter (at the female thread crest) for a 6mm hole is 4.917mm. This would seem to indicate that a 4.917mm hole would give you the maximum thread engagement. Any smaller and you make the thing harder to tap or thread, and the tap would expand the hole to 4.917mm (maybe a bit less if the tap root is rounded. But you get some recommendations for a 4.7mm drill! Maybe that's the recommendation of tap mfrs. :D But this means that 5mm drill is 92%.

Has anyone used a 4.7mm drill to tap M6?
 
now tell me, if you take the screw, 1/8 of the height is cut off. 1/8 x 0.866 = 0.108. 6 - 0.216 = 5.784. thats about what a m6 screw measures. so do screws always have 100% engagement?

I don't have an optical comparator and a collection of metric bolts, but the drawings all show the major diameter going from flatted crest to flatted crest. And the vendor drawings all show crest to crest = nominal. So a 6mm SHOULD measure close to 6mm. Most times if I've put a mic on a bolt, it's been close to nominal. Is my limited experience typical?
 
I don't have an optical comparator and a collection of metric bolts, but the drawings all show the major diameter going from flatted crest to flatted crest. And the vendor drawings all show crest to crest = nominal. So a 6mm SHOULD measure close to 6mm. Most times if I've put a mic on a bolt, it's been close to nominal. Is my limited experience typical?

Cheaper 8.8 grade M6 screws that I have measure between 5,82 to 5,93mm
Better looking 12.9 grade socket head screws measure between 5,88 to 5,92mm
 
I don't have an optical comparator and a collection of metric bolts, but the drawings all show the major diameter going from flatted crest to flatted crest. And the vendor drawings all show crest to crest = nominal. So a 6mm SHOULD measure close to 6mm. Most times if I've put a mic on a bolt, it's been close to nominal. Is my limited experience typical?

major diameter is not nominal diameter. right?
 
Any metric tapping size is determined by subtracting the pitch of the thread from the diameter of the thread. eg. M6x1 = 5 mm , m8x1.25 - 6.75, m10x1.5 = 8.5 etc
 
major diameter is not nominal diameter. right?


That's correct, its not. For higher fit classes though, the max diameter approaches nominal though*. But the point of the thread is to figure out the proper drill size for a tap, which (depending upon fit class) will probably be closer to nominal.

*Quick glance though one chart showed that (for example) 7/16 inch fit class 3A bolts have a max diameter of 7/16, and a min diameter a couple percent less than 7/16".
 
This is a subject that has attracted my interest. I saw different numbers being thrown about in posts like this so I became curious as to just what constituted a 75% thread and by extension, what constituted a 100% thread. I did some research and the deeper that I dug, the more confused I became. First, there are many tap drill tables out there and they do not always agree. Second, if you look into the standards, it is actually worse than the Wikipedia drawing that is shown in the original post. That drawing completely neglects tolerances and the different allowances that apply to the different classes of fit. What I could not find anywhere was any definitive statement of precisely what numbers were used to calculate the size of the thread that constituted either a 75% or a 100% thread size.

It quickly became apparent that I needed to analyze the various numbers in the published and accepted tap drill tables. That would be the only way to actually determine what those numbers were based on. So I decided to construct my own tap drill calculator so I could both do the calculations myself AND evaluate the true percentage that a given tap drill would actually provide. The evaluation of an actual tap drill is necessary because the calculated size and an actual, standard, available drill bit are only rarely the same. For most threads some compromise must be made. For some threads, too many in my humble opinion, that difference is all too large and the the actual percentage is quite different from the 75%. I have seen some commonly suggested "75%" tap drills that actually provide less than 70% or as much as 78% of the full thread form. These are tap drills that are published in a great number of "accepted" 75% tables.

I did construct my own tap drill calculator using Microsoft Excel. It allows the input of many different factors in the calculation. It does allow the calculation of tap drills for Vee threads of any cross sectional angle (60, 55, etc.) It does not use just a simple formula like the common one of Major Diameter minus the Pitch. It takes into account the:

Measurement System (English or Metric)
Nominal Major Diameter
TPI for English (inch) threads
Pitch for metric threads
% of Flat at the Crest
% of Fill at the Root
Thread Angle in degrees
Desired % of Full Thread

Each of these factors can be entered separately. It then calculates the Height of a full, sharp Vee thread, the Height of an actual, full thread, the Height of a thread of the desired percentage, a calculated Tap Drill Diameter in inches, a calculated Tap Drill Diameter in mm. It then uses table lookup functions to find actual, real world drill bits; both the nearest size under the calculated amount and the nearest size over the calculated size. It shows these nearest drill bit sizes in the same units that were selected as the first choice above (inches or mm).

It then shows a suggested tap drill bit using the one of the above, two choices that is closest to the calculated size. It shows that suggested drill bit size as a letter, number, fractional, of mm size. Then it displays the actual diameter of that drill bit in case you can't remember what the diameter of a L size bit is. Finally, it has a section where you can enter the actual drill bit that you wish to use. It shows that bit's diameter and the actual percentage of a full thread that it will produce for your thread. I still have a bit of work to do on that last section.

After I had partially completed this very complete tap drill calculator, I tried the sizes of the tap drills suggested by the many published tables and these trials convinced me that the published tables are calculated for threads with 1/8H flats on the crests and 1/8H fill at the roots. In short, almost all the published tables assume that the actual, full thread height is 3/4H or 75% of a sharp Vee thread. That means that they are intended to give you a thread that is 0.75 X 0.75 X the full height of a sharp Vee thread. That comes to 0.6525X or 65.25% of a sharp Vee thread.

That is less than 2/3s of the height of a sharp Vee thread and it took me some time and more research to convince myself that this was exactly what the published tables were doing. But it is. Now, there may be one or two odd-ball tables that give different results, but the vast majority are using this 65% factor or something very close. BTW, that is exactly 9/16 in fractional form.

That is somewhat long winded, but I think it should answer the OP's first question. I am sorry that I can not provide any better source for this information, but I am completely satisfied that it is correct. Perhaps if I were to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on an official source document, but that is too rich for my blood. Another conclusion that I came to in this search was that those official source documents are closely guarded, expensive, and not everything in them is published in more readily available sources like Machinery's Handbook or Wikipedia. I suspect this is by design to protect their income stream.
 
Continued: Actual Percentages of Various Tap Drills Mentioned Above

My last post got too long. So here is another chapter, hopefully shorter.

Using my tap drill calculator here are some actual percentages of thread that the various drills that were suggested above will provide. My calculator rounds the percentages to the nearest whole number. I did that as the selection of actual drill bits is coarse enough that any closer numbers would not really matter.

The thread is M6 or 6mm diameter x 1mm pitch.

5mm Drill: 77%

5.1 mm: 69%

#6 (0.204"): 63%

13/64: 65%

#7 (0.201"): 69%

#8 (0.199): 73%

As near as I can ascertain, a 75% thread would require a 5.0257 mm tap drill (0.1979"). The nearest English or metric sized drill bit would be the 5mm mentioned above. This is just one example of the fact that it is often not possible to find a standard drill bit that is the exact size calculated/needed. In the real world these small differences do not matter much. But, in some cases the difference can be larger and it is beneficial to know just where you stand if tap breakage is a factor.

Note: the 5mm and the #8 bits are each off by 2% in my numbers above but looking at the actual sizes involved and assuming that 5.025mm or 0.1978" is the exact value, the 5mm is actually a bit closer to that ideal.
 








 
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