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  1. #41
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    Jesus- it's just a car.

    Brings nut jobs out of the trees like the second coming.

    Electricity- give me a god damn break, you would have to be on the lunatic fringe to buy into that crap.

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    I think its great, a very good leap forward. Now lets watch as the imitators line up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny SolidWorks View Post
    Although the 'Holier than Thou' environmental routine makes a lot more sense now that I know you're from Portland. Maybe come down of your high Audi (soon to be Tesla?) and converse with us mere mortals who go about our daily lives without saving the World with our choice in vehicles. In flyover country (ya know, about 80% of the country) Teslas, BMWs, Mercedes, Porsches, etc. are all a little exotic, mostly because the tools (that's flyover slang for d-bag) who buy them are pretty rare too.
    When did I ever say I cared about the environment? Or have a "Holier than Thou" attitude about the environment?

    I love cars, especially German ones. I worked for BMW and AC Schnitzer (many many years ago). I've been a BMW CCA driving instructor and did a couple of seasons of club racing. Hardly an environmentalist.

    I'm a Tesla fan because I also like technology, and the times I've gotten to drive a Model S - it's beat the pants off of the BMW driving experience for everyday, around-town, driving. No, I wouldn't want a Tesla for twisty back roads, or to spend a day at Thunderhill with, but for 95% of my driving? The Model S offers levels of acceleration, smoothness, comfort, tech toys, and "niceness" that BMW/Audi/Mercedes can't beat.

    Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles make a lot more sense than electric vehicles do, so I really have a hard time understanding why they aren't as well known, or as popular. Maybe because the traditional auto manufacturers have developed them, and the environmentalists think they're one degree removed from the devil.
    No, it's because of infrastructure. BMW was working (hard!) on internal combustion hydrogen back when I worked there. They had 7 series cars running on it, they even had a publicly accessible hydrogen filling station at the Munich airport. As abundant as hydrogen is, people forget that hydrogen never exists on it's own in nature - you need to "crack" it from water, which is an extremely energy intensive process in and of itself. You also need to compress it (more energy), and seal it in heavy tanks for transport (even more energy) or build a large pipe network. Filling it into a vehicle is tricky, because of it's temperature and pressure (very low and very high). The tech has advanced, but I know the original filler nozzles BMW used on the Hydrogen 7 project, were ordered from the same company that built the filler nozzles for old Minuteman ICBMs. Finally, the hydrogen tank in the car is huge and bulky (since it must be under pressure + armored), so it requires nearly double the space to get the same milage as the same vehicle with a traditional gasoline tank.

    Electric vehicles require none of that. Common home infrastructure can get you charged up in a few hours. Any spot with 3 phase power available can be turned into a fast charge point. A Tesla at one of these so called "Superchargers" can go from 0-80% full in about 30 minutes. Not quite as fast as gasoline, but not an order of magnitude difference.


    As for all the owner happiness stuff? Well of course they're happy - they're saving the planet and everyone knows it! This reminds me of the study that showed people think the same food tastes better when they paid more for it. I drive a 2001 Honda Odyssey, and it makes me incredibly happy because it's friggin' cheap, hauls all my crap, and I wouldn't even notice if someone dinged it in a parking lot. I can't imagine owning a commuter car I actually care about....what's the point?
    The whole reason Tesla is succeeding is because they've, put it simply, built a better car. Ignore the incentives. Ignore the environment (and look, the kind of folks with $80k to spend on a car? Guess what? They aren't complete idiots, they understand the supply chain of electricity and how their Tesla is likely really coal powered).

    The range problem is totally overblown. The number of drivers who put 200 miles on a car every day is absurdly low, a fraction of a percent. If you do need to take a road trip, Tesla has installed something like 2500 supercharger stations through the country. People have done (and continue to do) road trips in Teslas all the time and guess what? Keeping it charged simply is not a problem.

    My friend who went from a new (well, 3 year lease turn in) M5 to a Tesla drove it from the dealership to his house with his hands off the steering wheel for 90% of his trip thanks to Tesla Autopilot (effectively on-ramp to off-ramp, highway autonomous driving). Oh, and his is faster than his M5 while being dead silent, smoother, and with more tech toys inside.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Jesus- it's just a car.

    Brings nut jobs out of the trees like the second coming.
    So put your money where your mouth Is

    Or do you have them short like the rest of the world

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny SolidWorks View Post
    Of course, the whole need for electric vehicles is the impending doom of the planet, right?
    No it is not.
    Do you think we can still extract oil for 2000 years at our current rate?
    It takes a long time to make it and we are using faster it than it gets made. At some point this has to change and electric is currently our best bet.
    But I don't have the answers either.
    Bob

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    When did I ever say I cared about the environment? Or have a "Holier than Thou" attitude about the environment?

    I love cars, especially German ones. I worked for BMW and AC Schnitzer (many many years ago). I've been a BMW CCA driving instructor and did a couple of seasons of club racing. Hardly an environmentalist.

    I'm a Tesla fan because I also like technology, and the times I've gotten to drive a Model S - it's beat the pants off of the BMW driving experience for everyday, around-town, driving. No, I wouldn't want a Tesla for twisty back roads, or to spend a day at Thunderhill with, but for 95% of my driving? The Model S offers levels of acceleration, smoothness, comfort, tech toys, and "niceness" that BMW/Audi/Mercedes can't beat.
    Fair enough - I misread the situation, and I apologize.

    I'm 110% for rational, well thought out opinions. I just can't stand when people let the popular opinion of the time make up their mind for them, which is something I find to be fairly common when it comes to the latest and greatest widgets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny SolidWorks View Post
    I'm 110% for rational, well thought out opinions. I just can't stand when people let the popular opinion of the time make up their mind for them, which is something I find to be fairly common when it comes to the latest and greatest widgets.
    No need to apologize.

    Really though, Tesla is building an amazing car here. Literally the only thing I can ding them on is the interior feels a bit stingy compared to what the same money buys you from A/M/B. Aside from that, everything about the Tesla experience is an order-of-magnitude better. Go tease yourself with a test drive sometime just to see for yourself.

    The Model 3 event last week, will go down in history as the car industry's iPhone moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    No it is not.
    Do you think we can still extract oil for 2000 years at our current rate?
    It takes a long time to make it and we are using faster it than it gets made. At some point this has to change and electric is currently our best bet.
    But I don't have the answers either.
    Bob
    I know we can't go another two thousand years, but we do have a pretty substantial reserve right now, and they're actually dialing back production (at the moment) because of a decrease in demand.

    I'm not against electric cars, I just don't think they're where they need to be yet, and the rush to get them to market isn't a good thing.

    But we need to get our electricity from somewhere too, and all the other green technologies are lagging just as far behind. Solar Panels, Wind Energy and the like aren't very efficient, and the storage systems for electric power are the worst of the lot. We'll get there eventually, I just don't know when.

    I definitely don't have the answers: Thorium Molten Salt Reactors are a cool possibility, the underwater ocean current turbines are very cool, and lots of other crazy crap could all be what actually makes us our power down the line.

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    The Model 3 brought to my attention the absurdity of buying a new vehicle. There is something to be said for having a modern, dependable rig, but I wonder how many people ACTUALLY save money buying or leasing an electric vehicle?

    I drive an old Benz, inline 5 turbo diesel. On an average day, I can see 28 mpg. Based on my mileage (approx. 600/month), I spend about $50 on fuel (@ $2.29/gal). Sure, the Model 3 costs what? $7-12 in electricity to charge for a 250 mile range? That's awesome, cuts my fuel bill by half (or more), but at the same time, I'm out $150-$200 each month on payments, and I'm pissing money away on depreciation all the while. I can buy 7 identical Benz for the price of ONE Model 3, park 'em, and drive around for... I dunno, 250 years? Let's drop that down to 3 identical cards, and enough spare parts to fix each of 'em for the duration of their lives. Still 104 years of driving, and the cash value of each of those rigs would appreciate significantly, considering how they'll become more rare as time goes on.

    I dunno, there are definitely benefits. I'm sure if I ever have kids, I'll want a vehicle with ABS brakes, air bags, and crumple zones. The playing field is a lot more level if you consider it against other modern vehicles. Maybe if someone came out with a light duty hybrid electric pickup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny SolidWorks View Post
    I know we can't go another two thousand years, but we do have a pretty substantial reserve right now, and they're actually dialing back production (at the moment) because of a decrease in demand.

    I'm not against electric cars, I just don't think they're where they need to be yet, and the rush to get them to market isn't a good thing.

    But we need to get our electricity from somewhere too, and all the other green technologies are lagging just as far behind. Solar Panels, Wind Energy and the like aren't very efficient, and the storage systems for electric power are the worst of the lot. We'll get there eventually, I just don't know when.

    I definitely don't have the answers: Thorium Molten Salt Reactors are a cool possibility, the underwater ocean current turbines are very cool, and lots of other crazy crap could all be what actually makes us our power down the line.
    solar does not have to be ultra efficient, it is so abundant, we can waste a little. Also a distributed power grid is a better option then the current centralized one. I think eventually all electric power will be either solar, wind or maybe nuclear. but even nuclear will decrease.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I think eventually all electric power will be either solar, wind or maybe nuclear.
    -There is no "maybe". If you are for the widespread use and application of full-electric cars- especially if in the context of reducing CO2 emissions- if you are to be intellectually honest, you must also be for the development and production of additional nuclear power plants.

    It's simply not a question. Yes, we can get a large amount of energy from wind and solar (and to a lesser extent tidal, although that's of no help to people in, say, Nebraska) but as they say, the wind doesn't always blow, and the sun doesn't always shine.

    Both are currently backstopped by fossil fuel plants, and barring a huge breakthrough in efficient electrical storage, will continue to be so for the forseeable future.

    Want a source of electricity as weather-independent as a fossil fuel plant but without the CO2 emissions? That means nuclear. Period, end of conversation.

    Anyone promoting the advent and development of electric cars, but not also promoting the advent and development of nuclear power, is, to put it simply, a hypocrite.

    Doc.

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  14. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    If you're going to shit on a company, at least have the intellectual honesty to see what that company has stated, multiple times and publicly and loudly, what their strategy is.
    I'll be perfectly clear. I am not shitting on Tesla as a Company. I am shitting on the idiot children that think they are going to save the fucking planet by buying yet another car to have in their four or more car garage. Those are, in the appropriate term used by another poster her, the douchbags that are the prime target audience.

    I do agree entirely with Doc, in that Nuclear energy is the ONLY way any supply side issues will be solved from the electric grid. Wind stops blowing, sun doesn't always shine, and the sheeple want their shit to work even if the weather doesn't cooperate.

    Hydro is almost as good, but you end up with a bunch of people all but killing themselves in order to block any new major developments. Not 'quite' as badly as they protest against new Nuke plants, but damn near. And they rely upon there being a decent physical location with a good enough grade and water supply.

    Cheers
    Trev
    Last edited by trevj; 04-04-2016 at 09:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Head in the sand a bit....?

    One example of thousands of things we "fucked up":

    Pollution of the Hudson River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    You one of those guys who dump waste oil in your front yard or just use a local creek?
    How's Go fuck you hat boatboy, sound to you?

    I am living on the same land that three previous generations of my family have been on, and I'll happily drink from any water source around here. You?

    I didn't fuck it up, I don't take responsibility for that it's fucked up, nor do I feel guilty. I take as good care of my own space as I can.

    Plugging in a car at night so that someone else gets the fallout of burning coal that was too dirty to export, to produce the "clean' electric energy, is an idiots game. I am not willing to play. That is, coal too dirty to even sell to the Chinese, is powering this stuff.

    That there are as many folks trying to dig in to MY pocket to have THEIR feel-good experience, also sours me on the concept. A lot.

    I live on the same planet as you, but surely not in the same world.

    Cheers
    Trev

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderedge View Post
    No point in driving an EV if the power plants are contaminating the planet just as much as gasoline.
    They aren't. Even if they were, your premise would still be incorrect. It's a lot easier to implement filtering and scrubbing in a single centralized location as opposed to doing it across millions of vehicles at the point of use. And second, cities is where pollution is worst. Moving production of energy out of cities is a benefit.

    But using electricity for power generates massively less pollution from the get-go, so the above are just additional benefits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    At -40 thats a significant percent of battery capacity.
    And how often do you find yourself walking outside and it's -40 out, and you say "SHIT! I needed maximum range today, now I won't be able to use the defroster!".

    I'll venture a guess that the above has never happened and never will happen. It's a non issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    Now, don't take that wrong. I have nothing against electrics. I'd love to have a Tesla, personally. But generally speaking, full electrics are simply NOT a truly viable choice outside of the Sun Belt.

    Doc.
    Your anecdotal experiences don't support your conclusion above.

    Real world range for a Tesla in winter in the continental USA is an as-tested 175-190 miles on a full charge.

    An EV isn't like a gas car where you generally fill it up when it gets low. You plug your EV in when you get home and/or when you get to work. The reality of an EV is that instead of getting home with 180 miles of range left, you have 140 miles left. So what?

    That hardly makes it a sun-belt only car. It makes it a car suited for people who don't generally need to drive 180+ miles in winter and without access to a supercharging station during the trip. What percentage of people out of the sunbelt does that represent? An irrelevant fraction, judging by how well these cars sell here in New England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny SolidWorks View Post
    Bjorn Lomborg: Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret - WSJ

    The whole thing is worth reading (and it's short) but this may be the most frustrating information:

    "The current best estimate of the global warming damage of an extra ton of carbon-dioxide is about $5. This means an optimistic assessment of the avoided carbon-dioxide associated with an electric car will allow the owner to spare the world about $44 in climate damage. On the European emissions market, credit for 8.7 tons of carbon-dioxide costs $48.

    Yet the U.S. federal government essentially subsidizes electric-car buyers with up to $7,500. In addition, more than $5.5 billion in federal grants and loans go directly to battery and electric-car manufacturers like California-based Fisker Automotive and Tesla Motors. This is a very poor deal for taxpayers."
    The article is full of debunked information and junk science.

    First, the "EV's generate more pollution to make" is a hotly contested topic, but he accepts the majority of the difference comes from the battery.

    Then he goes on to completely ignore the pollution associated with mining, refining, transporting, storing and dispensing gasoline.

    He says "if the energy comes mostly from coal powered plants" - but only 33% of our power comes from coal.

    On top of all that - the author of that article was investigated by the Danish gov't for a book he wrote and was found to have been scientifically dishonest through misrepresenting facts.

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    [QUOTE=trevj;2742452]Hydro is almost as good, but you end up with a bunch of people all but killing themselves in order to block any new major developments./QUOTE]

    -Actually, the primary problem with hydroelectric is the simple fact that we've already dammed almost all the dammable rivers in the US. There simply are essentially no more places in the US where we can viably put another Hoover or Grand Coulee.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Even if they were, your premise would still be incorrect. It's a lot easier to implement filtering and scrubbing in a single centralized location as opposed to doing it across millions of vehicles at the point of use.
    -Except that with a relative few exceptions, we're still burning fossil fuels for the majority of our electrical generation. Yes, in recent years- thanks to Big Oil, by the way- we've made natural gas cheap and abundant enough that we've been able to switch a significant percentage of our generation from "dirty" coal to somewhat less dirty natural gas.

    But no matter what, unless your local power is 100% renewable- and virtually nowhere in the US can say that- drivers of electrics are still contributing to emission of CO2.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    And how often do you find yourself walking outside and it's -40 out, and you say "SHIT! I needed maximum range today, now I won't be able to use the defroster!".

    I'll venture a guess that the above has never happened and never will happen. It's a non issue.
    -On an average year, we see anywhere from two weeks to two months worth of below-zero Farenheit. In the interior, around Fairbanks, that's often closer to three months. Google Image Search for "cold temps in Fairbanks".

    Alaska, I'll also note, is fairly large. From where I sit, it's almost exactly 180 miles to Anchorage. It's another 350 miles from Anchorage to Fairbanks. Or just 300 miles from Anchorage to Valdez. It's 400 miles to the border to Canada.

    If I go the other direction, it's 80 miles from here to Homer- I make that trip and back about every ten days to two weeks, rain or shine.

    Let's see, where's the nearest Tesla supercharger station? Ah, just outside of Calgary. Say, that is convenient!

    Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, again, I have nothing against Tesla, or electric cars in general. There are, in fact, more than few Teslas in Alaska, and as noted earlier in this thread, most of them take advantage of the ubiquitous receptacles generally used for engine block heaters.

    The only thing that annoys me about the discussion, is how it's always claimed that electrics are some kind of savior-of-mankind, that run for a million miles on half an hour of daylight, and how they will allow the seas to lower and the ozone to heal, or whatever.

    Electrics are cool. They're neat technology. But they're not a do-all, end-all, be-all for everyone. Proponents of electrics will find it an easier sell if they worked with ICE drivers, and not against them- or looking down their noses at them.

    Doc.


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